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Special Report's Bret Baier Uses Loaded Term "Illegals"

May 28, 2011 4:03 pm ET — 95 Comments

Fox News' Bret Baier, using the word "illegals" to describe undocumented immigrants in the United Statessaid that a U.S. Supreme Court decision would have the effect of "penalizing businesses for hiring illegals." However, prominent media outlets and journalists' associations have denounced the use of the term "illegals," noting that it "skew[s] the public debate on immigration issues."

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Baier Uses Term "Illegals" In Special Report Segment About Recent Supreme Court Decision

Baier: "Law Penaliz[es] Businesses For Hiring Illegals." From the May 26th episode of Special Report:

BAIER: [T]he U.S. Supreme Court has upheld Arizona's law, penalizing businesses for hiring illegals. The vote was 5-3 with one abstention. The justices rejected arguments that the states have no role in immigration matters, which could open the door to other challenges. [Fox News, Special Report with Bret Baier, 5/26/2011]

AP Style Book Explicitly Instructs Journalists Not To Use "Illegal Or Illegals"

Associated Press Style Book: "Do Not Use The Shortened Term An Illegal Or Illegals." In its definition of "illegal immigrant," the AP Style Book specifically instructs readers not to shorten the phrase to exclude the word "immigrant." From their official definition of the term "illegal immigrant":

Used to describe someone who has entered the country illegally or who resides in the country illegally. It is the preferred term, not illegal alien or undocumented worker. Do not use the shortened term an illegal or illegals. [AP Style Book, accessed 5/26/2011]

Journalists Have Called On Media To Avoid Use Of Pejorative Term "Illegals," Which Can "Skew Public Debate"

WAPO: "Sometimes The Terms Used In Describing An Issue Are So Powerful They Can Affect The ... Debate." In a column headlined "Immigration language wars," then-Washington Post ombudsman Andrew Alexander wrote that the Post "and others prohibit using 'illegal' as a noun ('he's an illegal')." From Alexander's column:

Discussion was renewed recently when Leo E. Laurence, a San Diego journalist and member of the diversity committee of the Society of Professional Journalists, wrote a column for the organization's magazine urging "undocumented" rather than "illegal."

"Simply put, only a judge, not a journalist, can say that someone is an 'illegal,'" he wrote. Laurence, who was offering a personal view that SPJ has not endorsed, soon ended up in a spirited on-air disagreement with Fox News Channel's Bill O'Reilly, who suggested that refusing to use the term "illegal" is "political correctness gone mad." The exchange sparked robust debate in the blogosphere.

Among journalists, Laurence is not alone in his view.

"We prefer 'undocumented immigrant,' " said Michele Salcedo, president of the National Association of Hispanic Journalists. She said that many people enter the United States legally documented but "for one reason or another they overstay their visa limit and become 'undocumented,' as it were." The term "undocumented" is "more inclusive and accurate," said Salcedo, an editor in the Washington bureau of the Associated Press.

She also agreed with Laurence that calling someone "illegal" is a judgment that courts, not journalists, should make. "In this country, if you are accused of a crime, whether it's a misdemeanor or a felony, you're entitled to your day in court," she said.

Donald M. Kerwin Jr., a vice president at the Migration Policy Institute, a nonpartisan think tank, said "illegal immigrant" is semantically wrong. While it is proper to say someone broke the law, he said, "you can't call them an 'illegal' person."

[...]

But any conversation about accuracy is worth having. And this is not just about semantics. Sometimes the terms used in describing an issue are so powerful they can affect the course of the debate, especially when selected by journalists with as much influence as those at The Post. [The Washington Post, 1/9/11]

National Association Of Hispanic Journalists Called For News Media To Stop Use Of "Illegals" As A Noun. In a March 2006 press release, the National Association of Hispanic Journalists (NAHJ), a "2,300-member organization of reporters, editors and other journalists," stated that it was "particularly troubled with the growing trend of the news media to use the word 'illegals' as a noun, shorthand for 'illegal aliens,' " adding: "Using the word in this way is grammatically incorrect and crosses the line by criminalizing the person, not the action they are purported to have committed":

NAHJ is concerned with the increasing use of pejorative terms to describe the estimated 11 million undocumented people living in the United States. NAHJ is particularly troubled with the growing trend of the news media to use the word "illegals" as a noun, shorthand for "illegal aliens". Using the word in this way is grammatically incorrect and crosses the line by criminalizing the person, not the action they are purported to have committed. NAHJ calls on the media to never use "illegals" in headlines.

Shortening the term in this way also stereotypes undocumented people who are in the United States as having committed a crime. Under current U.S. immigration law, being an undocumented immigrant is not a crime, it is a civil violation. Furthermore, an estimated 40 percent of all undocumented people living in the U.S. are visa overstayers, meaning they did not illegally cross the U.S. border. [National Association Of Hispanic Journalists, 3/06]

Asian American Journalists Association: References To "Illegals" Can "Heighten Xenophobia, Skew Public Debate." The Asian American Journalists Association (AAJA) stated in a press release that AAJA "fully supports the National Association of Hispanic Journalists (NAHJ) in calling on the news media to use caution with terminology when referring to undocumented immigrants, workers and laborers." AAJA further stated:

Any reference to "illegals" or "illegal aliens" can heighten xenophobia, skew public debate on immigration issues, and put the lives and well-being of all non-U.S. citizens (undocumented and documented) in this country at risk by suggesting they are criminals and do not belong in the U.S.

Millions of Asian Americans are directly and indirectly affected by the current immigration debate and AAJA urges the news media not to cast a wide net -- through insensitive labels -- that would dehumanize an entire sector of our society. [Asian American Journalists Association, 3/29/06]

National Association Of Black Journalists: We Need To Make Sure Words "Are Not Loaded." The National Association of Black Journalists stated in a press release that it supports the "plea that newspapers, television and radio outlets avoid using the term illegal aliens in the context of the current debate, as it is inaccurate and susceptible to misinterpretation." NABJ added:

The words we use can in fact frame the debate, said NABJ President Bryan Monroe, assistant vice president for news at Knight Ridder, and we all need to make sure those words are not loaded with baggage and off-the-mark. Language does matter. If we can't be accurate, were not doing our jobs. [National Association Of Black Journalists, 2006, via Media Matters]

New York Times' Lawrence Downes: The Word "Illegal" "Pollutes The Debate. It Blocks Solutions." Downes wrote on October 28, 2007, that "America has a big problem with illegal immigration, but a big part of it stems from the word 'illegal.' It pollutes the debate. It blocks solutions." Downes further wrote:

Since the word modifies not the crime but the whole person, it goes too far. It spreads, like a stain that cannot wash out. It leaves its target diminished as a human, a lifetime member of a presumptive criminal class. People are often surprised to learn that illegal immigrants have rights. Really? Constitutional rights? But aren't they illegal? Of course they have rights: they have the presumption of innocence and the civil liberties that the Constitution wisely bestows on all people, not just citizens.

[...]

Meanwhile, out on the edges of the debate -- edges that are coming closer to the mainstream every day - bigots pour all their loathing of Spanish-speaking people into the word. Rant about "illegals" - call them congenital criminals, lepers, thieves, unclean -- and people will nod and applaud. They will send money to your Web site and heed your calls to deluge lawmakers with phone calls and faxes. Your TV ratings will go way up.

This is not only ugly, it is counterproductive, paralyzing any effort toward immigration reform. Comprehensive legislation in Congress and sensible policies at the state and local level have all been stymied and will be forever, as long as anything positive can be branded as "amnesty for illegals." [New York Times10/28/2007]

Geoffrey Nunberg: "[T]here Are Disparaging Connotations To The Negative Prefix In Illegal." Linguist Geoffrey Nunberg stated in an April 11, 2006, commentary for NPR's Fresh Air:

Nowadays, those connotations have led the majority of the mainstream media to steer clear of the word aliens -- "illegal immigrants" tends to be the phrase of choice. But illegal has something more than a technical meaning, too. True, dictionaries define the word simply as "not according to law." But there are disparaging connotations to the negative prefix in illegal, which is actually just a variant of the prefix in-. Inhuman doesn't mean the same thing as "not human," and you don't become irreligious simply by not going to church. And you hear the same negative tone in words like insincere,inflexible, and illegitimate. So it isn't surprising that we reserve illegal for conveying strong disapproval. We may talk about illegal drugs, but we don't describe the Porsche 959 as an illegal car, even though it can't legally be driven in the US.

Then too, we don't usually describe law-breakers as being illegal in themselves. Jack Abramoff may have done illegal lobbying, but nobody has called him an illegal lobbyist. And whatever laws Bernie Ebbers and Martha Stewart may have broken, they weren't illegal CEO's.

It's only your immigration status that can qualify you as being an illegal person, or that can earn you the honor of being "an illegal" all by itself. That use of illegal as a noun actually goes back a long ways. The British coined it in the 1930's to describe Jews who entered Palestine without official permission, and it has been used ever since as a way of reducing individuals to their infractions. [NPR'sFresh Air4/11/2006]

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    • Author by handsomejack54 (May 28, 2011 5:38 pm ET)
      9 7
      Bad News Baier.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by alwaysright1 (May 30, 2011 1:22 pm ET)
        12 12
        Yeah, how dare he use an accurate term.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by rivapete (May 30, 2011 6:32 pm ET)
          5 2
          I guess I must be an idiot; because where I come from that if somebody comes to this country by sneaking in (which in turn, breaks the law) that would make that person ILLEGAL. We are a land of immigrants and the melting pot to the world, they still came through legally. I praise those people
          Report Abuse
          • Author by foghornleghorn (May 31, 2011 11:56 am ET)
            4 6
            People cannot be "illegal".

            Make a note of it.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by right ON 2 (May 31, 2011 12:57 pm ET)
              4 6
              Again, you're wrong.

              People in this country illegal are illegals. By their very existence here, every second they are here, they are illegal. Sorry the left doesn't like it, but it's a fact.

              They are not illegal some of the time, they are here illegally every minute they are here, until they decide to the right thing and go through the process. like others who do the right thing.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by right ON 2 (May 31, 2011 12:58 pm ET)
                  5
                in this country illegally.
                Report Abuse
              • Author by Brabantio (May 31, 2011 1:57 pm ET)
                4 3
                Why accept the fallacious framework? "Illegal" doesn't apply to "people" in the first place. What you're talking about is immigration status, which doesn't carry the same emotional connotations as a person's being.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by right ON 2 (May 31, 2011 2:21 pm ET)
                  3 4
                  Except that their "being" is illegal, so the term is fine.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Brabantio (May 31, 2011 2:41 pm ET)
                    2 4
                    No, their presence is illegal. That's not the same as a person.

                    The entire concept as stated in the article is so absurd that it almost has to be disingenuous, designed to create an emotional effect. I think that's an uphill battle, as opposed to just pointing out that there's nothing wrong with "illegal immigrant", either semantically or ethically.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by right ON 2 (May 31, 2011 2:45 pm ET)
                      4 4
                      Fine, their presence. Nothing they do while in the presence of this country, is legal. Nothing. If they have an issue with what you label is an emotional term, then they have 100% power to change it. They can shed the term very simply, it's their choice.

                      They are illegal.
                      Report Abuse
        • Author by NiceguyEddie (May 31, 2011 12:08 pm ET)
          2 3
          It never fails: A biased RW commenter decrying the use of OBJECTIVITY and the maintainence of a NEUTRAL POSITION in non-editorial journalism. What a freaking surprise.

          ------------------------------------------------
          You're a brain-dead zombie if you think fox is anything bu RW propaganda.
          Report Abuse
    • Author by 4teepee (May 28, 2011 5:39 pm ET)
      9 15
      "Illegals" is a loaded term? That's nothing compared to the loaded term they use for Osama bin Laden: "terrorist."
      Report Abuse
      • Author by n'est-ce pas (May 28, 2011 6:35 pm ET)
        9 1
        So...Osama bin Laden wasn't a terrorist? I'm not sure what you're driving at.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by Nasty Liberal (May 28, 2011 7:25 pm ET)
          2 6
          4teepee be funny! Not funny ha ha so much, however.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by 4teepee (May 29, 2011 12:52 am ET)
          9 13
          "Terrorist" is a loaded term. Media Matters objects to loaded terms -- sometimes at least.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by vysotsky (May 29, 2011 1:50 am ET)
            7 1
            Please explain how you understand the term "loaded" to be distinct from "accurate". Thanks in advance for the forthcoming lesson in semantics and semiotics.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by 4teepee (May 29, 2011 2:33 am ET)
              5 7
              I didn't say one precluded the other.

              You're welcome.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by magnolialover (May 29, 2011 8:28 am ET)
                7 2
                Umm, the term, "Terrorist" really isn't a loaded term.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by syrabell (May 29, 2011 3:04 pm ET)
                  3  
                  Maybe he means loaded as in a loaded gun. To that I might agree that terrorist is a loaded term.
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by 4teepee (May 29, 2011 3:35 pm ET)
                  6 7
                  Then, neither is "illegal."
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by syrabell (May 29, 2011 6:15 pm ET)
                    7 7
                    No but it is being used in an illegal way. To say someone is illegal would mean that anyone that has ever done any thing against the law is an "illegal". Ever gone over the speed limit and gotten a ticket? does this make you an illegal? Or is it just a subtle way of referring to people of Hispanic origins in this country?
                    My ancestors came to the state of what is now California in 1697, fought for the Bear Flag revolt to become California, Fought to make California a state in 1850. I am often confronted by persons wanting to ask if I am here legally, they ask "got a green card?" So I find this term and its use insulting and I find the whole idea that if you are not of white European descent then your are not welcome. My ancestors are of Spanish descent. Being from southern European origins causes skin color to have more melatonin
                    and therefore look "non-white"
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by 4teepee (May 29, 2011 10:07 pm ET)
                      10 6
                      I would agree with you except that it is clear from the context that "illegal" is just shorthand for "illegal immigrant" or "illegal alien."
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by syrabell (May 30, 2011 1:34 am ET)
                        5 9
                        Then why not use the whole term? Why use the shorthand? I feel it is just an attempt to be cruel and degrading. A very unprofessional use of words by a journalist. He should be more of a professional, he is being lazy and inaccurate and deserves to have it pointed out.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by leftylouie (May 31, 2011 10:34 am ET)
                          3 1
                          But, is undocumented worker accurate. I guess I am an undocumented worker because I don't have a passport. Does that qualify. I just don't understand why calling a spade a spade is unprofessional, but making up terminology like undocumented worker(how did they get undocumented? did they legally come here but the government forgot to give them their documents?)They are illegal aliens, so shorthand of illegal is correct, and alot of them don't like being called aliens.
                          Report Abuse
                    • Author by The Liberal Republican (May 31, 2011 1:33 pm ET)
                      3 3
                      "illegals" is a racial slur. It's that simple. I love the comparison to a speeding ticket!!! I guess I'm one of them there illegals too, at least when I'm in a car.

                      Just a little nitpick... I think it is melanin, not melatonin. Melatonin is a chemical in the brain that aids in restful sleep.

                      I'm white, so I don't really understand, but if someone asked me for a green card, I think I would punch them in the face!
                      Report Abuse
            • Author by bobklahn (May 29, 2011 4:27 pm ET)
              6 8
              Terrorist is both accurate and loaded when applied to OBL.

              Illegal immigrant is both loaded and accurate when applied to illegal immigrants.

              Drop the game playing.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by vysotsky (May 29, 2011 6:51 pm ET)
                6 2
                Illegal immigrant is both loaded and accurate when applied to illegal immigrants.

                I have no objection to the term "illegal immigrant." At issue is the nominalization of the adjective "illegal" to refer to a person.
                Report Abuse
              • Author by mikehuck76 (May 31, 2011 3:27 pm ET)
                4 2
                I think most of us are fine with "illegal immigrant". But "illegals"? Really? This is the best we can expect from our journalists? Very sad.
                Report Abuse
        • Author by bobklahn (May 29, 2011 4:25 pm ET)
          4 3
          OBL was a terrorist, and illegal immigrants are illegal immigrants.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by Boswell (May 29, 2011 8:19 pm ET)
            2 3
            about OBL correct, as to the second you actually used a different term then the one in question. so the question becomes...how dishonest are you?
            Report Abuse
          • Author by jonimacaroni1 (May 29, 2011 8:55 pm ET)
            2 7
            No, they aren't "illegal immigrants". They're immigrants who are here illegally, but they aren't "illegal immigrants".

            There's a difference. People aren't illegal. Their behavior is illegal. It's not a modifier for the person. It's a modifier for their behavior.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by Brabantio (May 29, 2011 9:07 pm ET)
              10 1
              Did you notice that the AP Stylebook that MMfA cites defines "illegal immigrant" as "the preferred term"?
              Report Abuse
            • Author by riverdog (May 30, 2011 5:16 pm ET)
              4 2
              way to spin joni.
              Report Abuse
            • Author by mikehuck76 (May 31, 2011 3:29 pm ET)
              2 2
              I have no problem with illegal immigrants. It suggests they immigrated illegally. But, the problem with referring to a group of people as "illegals" should not have to be explained to actual journalists.
              Report Abuse
      • Author by galmud (May 29, 2011 5:57 am ET)
        2 5
        Did you just read the headline? Media Matters provided references to journalists explaining why the term "illegal" should not be used by journalists or pundits in the media to describe undocumented immigrants.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by bobklahn (May 29, 2011 4:31 pm ET)
          1 7
          Undocumented should not be applied to illegal immigrants. I have 5 living members of my family who are immigrants. If they step outside their doors without identification they are undocumented immigrants. They are, however, legal immigrants.

          If I step outside my door without my wallet I'm an undocumented worker. Yet I am a native American.

          We don't call Bernie Maddof an illegal trader, we call him a felon, a fraud, and a bastard. Arguing the trivial details is a diversion.

          Illegal workers are illegal workers who take jobs away from Americans and legal immigrants.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by jonimacaroni1 (May 29, 2011 8:58 pm ET)
            9 5
            No, they aren't "undocumented" when they step outside their doors without their papers, just like I remain a licensed driver even if I don't have my license on me!

            If your relatives have paperwork that allows them to be in the USA legally, then they're not "undocumented."

            People who either came here without the proper entrance visas or who remained here after their paperwork allowing them here expired are "undocumented immigrants."

            People aren't "illegal". Their behavior is "illegal".
            Report Abuse
          • Author by mikehuck76 (May 31, 2011 3:30 pm ET)
            2 1
            If I step outside my door without my wallet I'm an undocumented worker. Yet I am a native American. - bobkahn

            OK. You cannot really be this stupid, can you? Now, I get the feeling you are joking around.

            Report Abuse
      • Author by Old_Benjamin (May 30, 2011 11:40 am ET)
        3  
        That's nothing compared to the loaded term they use for Osama bin Laden: "terrorist."


        One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter. See rep. King.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by Looking_4_Truth (May 28, 2011 7:04 pm ET)
      7 7
      Baier remains as clueless as ever. I doubt if he, or very many others in Faux's stable of "reporters" have any familiarity with the AP Stylebook! And even if they have heard of it, they probably only did so in passing. When have they ever done anything that could even remotely be considered journalism?
      Report Abuse
    • Author by OHerro (May 28, 2011 9:03 pm ET)
      6 7
      Reminds me of that "undocumented" nonsense that was being spread around

      Report Abuse
      • Author by Johaely (May 28, 2011 9:20 pm ET)
        2 6
        What would you call an immigrant whose visa has expired yet they haven't (or couldn't) leave the country? Undocumented immigrant is a more polite euphemism.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by jonimacaroni1 (May 28, 2011 10:28 pm ET)
        8 5
        Undocumented immigrants are people who don't have proper documents that allow them to be legally within our borders.

        Documented immigrants have those legit documents.

        People aren't "illegal".
        Report Abuse
        • Author by OHerro (May 29, 2011 6:58 pm ET)
          4 6
          People have illegal immigration status

          Hence they are illegal immigrants, not simply undocumented. Just like they aren't illegal people, nor are they "aliens". Politically loaded terms do nothing to help anyone.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by jonimacaroni1 (May 29, 2011 9:00 pm ET)
            2 7
            No, people are never "illegal." Their immigration status might not be legal, but that doesn't make them "illegal.'

            "Aliens" is not a 'loaded' term.
            Report Abuse
    • Author by Brabantio (May 28, 2011 9:54 pm ET)
      6 6
      I agree that the term "illegals" amplifies xenophobia, but some of the arguments here are sort of odd.
      Donald M. Kerwin Jr., a vice president at the Migration Policy Institute, a nonpartisan think tank, said "illegal immigrant" is semantically wrong. While it is proper to say someone broke the law, he said, "you can't call them an 'illegal' person."
      My wife is a "child advocate", so would that be defining her as a "child"? No, the word obviously applies to the type of advocate she is; just like "illegal" applies to the type of immigrant in question.
      Under current U.S. immigration law, being an undocumented immigrant is not a crime, it is a civil violation. Furthermore, an estimated 40 percent of all undocumented people living in the U.S. are visa overstayers, meaning they did not illegally cross the U.S. border.
      This seems like hair-splitting. I may be wrong on this, but doesn't the term "legal" refer to "law"? Being an undocumented immigrant is not following immigration law, therefore it would seem to be "illegal" whether it's considered a crime or a civil violation. And why does "illegal immigrant" apply only to people who cross the border illegally? Whether you steal a car off the street or drive across the country after borrowing your friend's car to go to the store, you're still in possession of someone else's property. Whether it started off as legitimate or not doesn't change the fact that a violation occurred.
      She also agreed with Laurence that calling someone "illegal" is a judgment that courts, not journalists, should make. "In this country, if you are accused of a crime, whether it's a misdemeanor or a felony, you're entitled to your day in court," she said.
      This is my favorite. Are we talking about individual people? You would say "alleged" then, anyway. Typically such a discussion regards groups of people, and we know that there are people who are in the country wrongfully without a judge handing down a ruling on it. This is like discussing the problem with vandals in your local school and then saying there aren't vandals until a judge says so. Obviously if there's graffiti on the lockers, then there are vandals, whether any specific person has been found responsible or not.

      A civil debate is facilitated with "undocumented" rather than "illegals", certainly. Let's keep it that simple instead of twisting ourselves into semantic knots coming up with other reasons.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by jonimacaroni1 (May 28, 2011 10:36 pm ET)
        5 6
        You've missed the boat here. In your wife's job, "child" modifies "advocate". As it says above,

        "Since the word modifies not the crime but the whole person..."

        That's one problem with what you wrote. Another is that it's a loaded word that comes with baggage that one can't ignore.

        Another is that it's "illegals" that's being discussed here, not illegal immigrant. It's using "illegals" as a noun - as describing the whole person by the fact that they are here illegally.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by Brabantio (May 28, 2011 11:58 pm ET)
          5 5
          "Since the word modifies not the crime but the whole person..."
          That's from someone else, not the person I quoted. The quote in question was in regards to how "illegal immigrants" was supposedly semantically incorrect. Not "illegals", you will notice. In any event, I'm questioning the logic, so using the resulting assertion of that logic does not refute my point.
          That's one problem with what you wrote. Another is that it's a loaded word that comes with baggage that one can't ignore.
          I started with:
          I agree that the term "illegals" amplifies xenophobia...
          and finished with:
          A civil debate is facilitated with "undocumented" rather than "illegals"...
          I'd like you to show how I'm ignoring any "baggage" the term comes with.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by jonimacaroni1 (May 29, 2011 9:43 am ET)
            4 6
            I never said that the quote I provided was from the person you quoted. I was discussing how your analogy to your wife's job title doesn't align with this description.

            Your analogy doesn't work.

            The discussion is about the usage of the word "illegals". There are multiple reasons to avoid using the word illegals, not just the one that you like to rely upon.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by Brabantio (May 29, 2011 10:04 am ET)
              5 6
              You implied that the quote you provided showed a "problem" with my argument. If it's from someone else, then what relevance would it have to what I wrote?

              Why doesn't the analogy work? You're not giving me much more than an emotional reaction here. My wife is an advocate...more specifically, for children. So-and-so is an immigrant...more specifically, legal or illegal. Please provide more than the same conclusion that is given in the article to support your argument as to how that doesn't align.

              Again, the quote I referred specified "illegal immigrants", not "illegals", so don't pretend as if I'm going outside the boundaries of the discussion. If that term is irrelevant, then you will surely agree it's an argument MMfA shouldn't be using to bolster its case.

              And I still want to know how you think I ignored the connotations of "illegals", considering I mentioned it twice in my original post. Thank you in advance for your efforts in responsible posting.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by jonimacaroni1 (May 29, 2011 2:36 pm ET)
                4 6
                I already explained this once in my initial post and once in my second post. I won't explain it again.

                The reason it doesn't align is because of the quote I provided. Read the quote, and see how it applies to the analogy you're making.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by Brabantio (May 29, 2011 6:18 pm ET)
                  5 6
                  The quote you provided is the result of the logic that I questioned. That's circular reasoning, which is not an explanation. You've also failed repeatedly to show how I ignored the baggage of the word, for some strange reason.

                  Clinging to illogical, emotional reactions is the type of behavior that people on the right get called "trolls" for. You should make an effort to do better, honestly.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Apodixis (May 29, 2011 8:29 pm ET)
                    4 6
                    Thanks for the thoughtful analysis, Brabantio.

                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by jonimacaroni1 (May 29, 2011 9:01 pm ET)
                    3 6
                    I didn't do what you accuse me of. You failed the logic and reading comprehension quiz here, not I.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by Brabantio (May 29, 2011 9:05 pm ET)
                      6 5
                      You accused me of ignoring "baggage" when my post accounted for it not once, but twice. Talking about reading comprehension is just grabbing a bigger shovel on your part.

                      Deny all you want;empty rhetoric is all you have.
                      Report Abuse
        • Author by bobklahn (May 29, 2011 4:44 pm ET)
          4 4
          The use of illegals alone may be a problem, but it's a word usage problem, not a matter of immorality. However, a child advocate would be called a child advocate, and a child molester would be called a child molester, or a molester, either would be correct. Child molester is just more precise.

          I call a corporate fraud a felon, without apology. Ken Lay was a felon. He was a lot of other things, but felon is still good.

          Hitler, Eichman, Mengele, Rumsfeld, Cheney, all were war criminals. I leave Bush out because I think he was just an idiot.

          Sorry, the term describes the person. A grammatical difference does not qualify as a moral failing.

          Report Abuse
      • Author by bobklahn (May 29, 2011 4:40 pm ET)
        3 3
        You made many of the points I was going to make. Therefore, by definition: DAMN YOU'RE GOOD!
        Report Abuse
    • Author by angels4light (May 28, 2011 11:10 pm ET)
      2  
      Why is this a surprise? It is a piece condemning the crackdown on businesses for hiring those without proper documentation, so it is clearly an unwarranted intrusion into business by government, supported by those (D) voting illegals.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by Unreality (May 28, 2011 11:48 pm ET)
        3 1
        Therefore, through the transitive property of logic, if a business hires illegals that makes it illegal?

        Apparently FauxNoise meat puppets and viewers don't understand how that can be logical.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by Unreality (May 29, 2011 12:10 am ET)
        4 1
        FauxNoise viewers are also incapable of doing 10 minutes of research and math to realize they're being scammed.

        It can be statistically proven that voting machines are more dangerous to our democracy than illegal voters!

        0.56 percent error rate
        Call it 56 per ten thousand votes.
        1,250 votes in a 250,000 vote congressional district.
        725,200 votes in the 2008 presidential election.

        That's the statistical error rate of current optical scan voting machinery - assuming there are no errors made in programming or database reporting as recently in Wisconsin's Supreme Court election.

        How many illegal voters have been ever accused, much less prosecuted or convicted?

        *Source for data Yes you should copy and paste this data on every wingnut website
        Report Abuse
        • Author by month45william (May 29, 2011 5:14 am ET)
            1
          This is most inanely stupid thing I have heard in a very long time. Why am I not surprised?
          Report Abuse
    • Author by ernestine211443473 (May 28, 2011 11:40 pm ET)
        1
      Changing the language will not change the FACT that illegal is a legitimate term to indicate someone here in violation of our laws. It only skews public debate in that it forces everyone to recognize the importance of laws in any discussion of immigration.

      Shame on those who prefer "undocumented". This is much like equating "unlicensed pharmacist" with "drug dealer". Americans will not fall for this sham!
      Report Abuse
    • Author by roseyO (May 29, 2011 2:05 am ET)
      1 1
      omg, this is way too funny. Bret Baier uses loaded term "illegals" to describe ..... wait for it...... undocumented immigrants (illegals).

      Hate to splain this to you, but when you have laws and you break them, that is called ILLEGAL, no matter what Journ-O-Lists call it.

      This political disaster to open borders will come back and hurt us all, you can not have a country without borders. And the People that are coming across that border are not just Mexican's looking for a better life. There are people of every country coming in here and there plan is not to better the USA. Get over the naive perception of who these people are. You remind me of the German's pre WWII.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by month45william (May 29, 2011 5:11 am ET)
         
      I saw this one earlier today: Drug dealer = undocumented pharmacist. This is a rough approximation of attempts at coherent thought. You people are seriously laughable! The amount of noise you make stands in stark relief your intellectual powers.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by j238 (May 29, 2011 6:50 am ET)
      8 8
      Media Matters is supposed to be about substance.

      This is about one guy's failure to use pc language.

      Lighten up, please.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by wiseguyjim (May 29, 2011 7:40 am ET)
        1
      This is the silliest article I have ever read. STOP with the political correctness in this country. You find the term "illegal" as a slight?? I find the term "immigrant" a slight. These people sneaking into the country are nothing close to being an immigrant. And shame on Reagan, Bush Sr., Clinton, Bush Jr., and now Obama for letting this mess get bigger and bigger. And this article does nothing to help either. The AP guide book is not the same guide book used by Fox News. The use of the term "illegals" can "skew public debate"? The only ground I could see this article justly going after is the call for the phrase "illegal immigrant" being done away with and the phrase "illegal alien" reinstated to deescribe those who broke the laws of this country to get here. End of story!
      Report Abuse
    • Author by WatermelonRat (May 29, 2011 8:14 am ET)
      3  
      Illegal immigrants broke the law and should be punished appropriately, but they don't deserve to be dehumanized, which is essentially what the term "illegal" does.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by curiousindependent (May 29, 2011 9:10 am ET)
      8 2
      Up next, news anchor refers to convicted murderer as a "criminal".
      Report Abuse
      • Author by jonimacaroni1 (May 29, 2011 9:45 am ET)
        4 5
        Yes, but not as an "illegal".
        Report Abuse
        • Author by curiousindependent (May 29, 2011 10:17 am ET)
          4 4
          criminal... illegal... toMAYto...toMAHto


          The criminal acts allegedly perpetrated by the suspect would, if proven, cause him to be incarcerated for many years.

          is different from:

          The illegal acts allegedly perpetrated by the suspect would, if proven, cause him to be incarcerated for many years.

          how, exactly?
          Report Abuse
          • Author by Boswell (May 29, 2011 8:18 pm ET)
            3 1
            in that in both your cases you refered to the person in question as a "susoect" not an "illegal"...
            Report Abuse
        • Author by curiousindependent (May 29, 2011 10:18 am ET)
          4 6
          Oh, I think I understand now. We shouldn't refer to them as "illegal aliens" but, rather, we should refer to them as "criminal immigrants"?
          Report Abuse
          • Author by BassVirus (May 29, 2011 2:39 pm ET)
            5 5
            Did you even look at the title of the article you are responding to?

            Illegal immigrant is fine. Calling someone "an illegal" is dehumanizing and stinks of bigotry.

            Unless you are a sociopath, in which case i suppose it is okay to dehumanize people who aren't you.

            Report Abuse
          • Author by jonimacaroni1 (May 29, 2011 2:42 pm ET)
            3 5
            Just like we should refer to someone who commits the crime of stealing a store owner's goods a "shoplifter", we call people who are in our country illegally "undocumented immigrants". That describes their crime. We don't call people who commit vehicular manslaughter "illegal drivers", or teenagers who skip school too often "illegal students", do we?
            Report Abuse
            • Author by curiousindependent (May 29, 2011 5:04 pm ET)
              6 3
              True, we do not. I apologize, I drew the apparently mistaken conclusion that they were shortening it. Then "illegal alien" is still ok, just not "illegal". I assume that I can still call the guy who broke into my car a "criminal", right?
              Report Abuse
              • Author by mikehuck76 (May 31, 2011 3:34 pm ET)
                1 2
                I assume that I can still call the guy who broke into my car a "criminal", right? - curious

                No, that was a repo man. It is complicated. We will explain it to you later.
                Report Abuse
            • Author by Brabantio (May 29, 2011 6:28 pm ET)
              6 5
              "Illegal drivers" wouldn't work because it "illegal" doesn't apply to that person's status as a driver. Same for "illegal students". The word does apply to one's status as an immigrant, though, just as "legal" does.

              See how specifying the problem with an analogy isn't hard, if you just make a little effort?
              Report Abuse
              • Author by Brabantio (May 29, 2011 6:32 pm ET)
                  4
                Excuse the under-edit, it should be "wouldn't work because 'illegal' doesn't apply..."
                Report Abuse
              • Author by jonimacaroni1 (May 29, 2011 9:05 pm ET)
                3 6
                Illegal drivers would work if it worked for anyone. It works for no one, though. People aren't "illegal." Their behavior might be illegal, just like a truant would be an "illegal student", or a driver convicted of manslaughter would be an "illegal driver." Except, as you pointed out, it doesn't work! People aren't illegal.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by Brabantio (May 29, 2011 9:15 pm ET)
                  6 5
                  People aren't illegal;immigrants may be. That does deal with behavior, but the difference is that crossing the border illegally or overstaying is a behavior that has a continued effect on status, where a single incident such as vehicular manslaughter or a pattern of behavior such as truancy have no effect on the validity of the title in question.

                  If "illegal immigrant" is semantically incorrect (check the AP stylebook on that one), then so is "legal immigrant". I've never heard a complaint about that, have you?
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by mikehuck76 (May 31, 2011 3:35 pm ET)
                    2 3
                    Yeah, I don't think most reasonable people have a problem with "illegal immigrants" as a term. But, when you are referring to a group of people as "illegals" I think that would obviously be out of bounds for any reasonable, rational journalist that ever took basic journalism.
                    Report Abuse
    • Author by Carseller4 (May 29, 2011 11:52 am ET)
        2
      Media Matters = Language Police

      When someone say illegal alien, I know exactly what they are talking about.

      Remember "Rumble in the Jungle?" If Media Matters had their way it would be renamed "Prance in the Rainforest". Just doesn't have the same ring.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by Brynn (May 29, 2011 12:29 pm ET)
      1 2
      "I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class thug for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902–1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents"
      ~ Smedley Darlington Butler
      For almost 200 years we have overthrown their elected governments, installed brutal dictators, and committed economic warfare against the countries of Central and South American. Even now people are vanishing in Honduras a country in which Senator Jim Demintt helped to orchestrate a coup against the freely elected government.
      However when the result of our destroying their counties and wrecking their economies is that they come here for work, our
      Right wing hate machine victimizes them once again. Which is Ironic since republican administrations and policies have been and are the biggest cause of death in Latin America.
      If Rightwingers want to lecture about what is illegal I dare them to have the balls to do so in the Plaza De Mayo in Argentina where the mothers of the disappeared meet on every Thursday to honor those who died from the brutality of dictators that we installed.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by unclebill (May 29, 2011 1:06 pm ET)
      1 1
      This is just stupid. All this PC garbage is turning into insanity. OK, I will play along. Calling someone an illegal might make someone feel bad. People that break the law need to be coddled or their self esteem may be damaged. I will start being more linguistically accurate and just call them CRIMINALS.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by steeve (May 29, 2011 7:14 pm ET)
      3 4
      What fun arguing the finer details of reason #3572 of why conservatives suck.

      I'm still on reason #1 -- they're constantly wrong.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by CUonTheOtherSide (May 30, 2011 7:49 am ET)
      1 1
      Personally, I don't have a big problem with the terms illegals, or illegal immigrants or illegal aliens, when they are used in a general sense to refer to a large, abstract group. Like when someone says 'those jaywalkers, or those murderers, or those thiefs, or those illegals' to describe a nonspecific part of the American population. It's when an individual or specific group is called an illegal that i have a problem. For every other crime, the media, and Americans in general, are careful to never verbally convict a criminal without due process. Hence the term 'alleged'. Only after they are PROVEN GUILTY of a crime, do we call them what they are. I think the same rules should apply to those who cross Americas borders illegally. Yes, in doing so they commit a crime, but specific groups or individuals should only be considered criminals, or 'illegals', (without the word alleged as an intro) after the following occur: they are charged with a crime, and found guilty of that crime.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by wesley (May 30, 2011 10:19 am ET)
      5 6
      -- "We prefer 'undocumented immigrant,' " said Michele Salcedo, president of the National Association of Hispanic Journalists. She said that many people enter the United States legally documented but "for one reason or another they overstay their visa limit and become 'undocumented,' as it were." The term
      "undocumented" is "more inclusive and accurate," --

      I'll bet you prefer that description. Well, here's one that is even "more inclusive and accurate"...scofflaw.

      Call them whatever you want...immigrant or alien...as long as you add the qualifier "scofflaw".
      Report Abuse
      • Author by Disputed Zone (May 30, 2011 11:05 am ET)
        3 2
        Scofflaw is apt. The word has a fairly recent origin.

        scofflaw

        1924, from scoff (q.v.) + law. The winning entry in a national contest during Prohibition to coin a word to characterize a person who drinks illegally, chosen from more than 25,000 entries; the $200 winning prize was split between two contestants who sent in the word separately, Henry Irving Dale and Miss Kate L. Butler.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by leatherhelmet (May 30, 2011 6:52 pm ET)
      3 3
      So let me get this straight, a group that uses the loaded word "Black" in its name is complaining about the use of loaded words.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by Cometface (May 31, 2011 9:46 am ET)
      3 5
      Let put it this way. It is ILLEGAL to be here undocumented. You can look at it any way you want. They are illegals! Changing the words does not change the facts.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by wareagle (May 31, 2011 3:11 pm ET)
      3 7
      No matter how Misinformation Matters spins it Illegals are just that ILLEGAL!

      Illegals are one of the reasons California is now a hedge fund instead of a State.

      Truth to propagandists.
      Report Abuse

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