Tax-Cut Crusader Varney Supports The Wrong Tax Cuts
On the December 21 edition of Fox News' Fox & Friends, Fox Business host Stuart Varney, who has repeatedly promoted tax cuts for the wealthy, claimed he was "not so sure" a year-long extension of the payroll tax cut would create jobs. In fact, economists agree that an extension of the payroll tax cut would boost employment and help the economy, while the cuts supported by Varney would not have a positive impact on revenues or the economy.
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Varney Suggests The Payroll Tax Extension Would Not Create Jobs
Varney: "Does [An Extension Of The Payroll Tax] Create Jobs?" During the December 21 broadcast of Fox News' Fox & Friends, Fox Business host Stuart Varney questioned the idea that a year extension of the payroll tax cut creates jobs, ultimately concluding he "[wasn't] so sure." From the broadcast:
STEVE DOOCY (co-host): What we've got here is a big difference of opinion. Stuart Varney joins us right now live. It's very clear they're both standing their ground.
VARNEY: Wait a second, that's all politics.
GRETCHEN CARLSON (co-host): Yes, of course.
VARNEY: If you just put politics completely aside just for one moment, OK, and it's very hard to do. Put the politics aside and look at this policy. Is this a good policy for the American people? Is this good for the economy? Does it create jobs?
DOOCY: The two month payroll tax cut.
CARLSON: Thank you. Thank you for finally asking that question!
VARNEY: OK. Here's the question. If you extend the payroll tax holiday and you increase jobless benefits, that costs a quarter of a trillion dollars. OK? No politics here. That's just pure money. A quarter of a trillion dollars.
DOOCY: Taken from where? Social Security.
VARNEY: Taken from mostly Social Security and the general fund of tax revenue. You partly pay for this with? A tax. A fee on mortgages and refi[nancing]. Is this good policy?
DOOCY: You know what I am wondering--
VARNEY: Costs a quarter trillion. Do you create new jobs and you pay for it by taxing mortgages? I'm not so sure.
BRIAN KILMEADE (co-host): You have an interesting -- that's one part of the debate is does it even work? Do we need it? I guess most of Congress does because everybody agrees in Congress that we need it.
[...]
VARNEY: The payroll tax holiday extension essentially removes about $110 billion next year from the Social Security Trust Fund. It takes -- from Social Security revenues, that's what I should say. $110 Billion taken away from Social Security. Is that good for Social Security? Is that good for retirees? Is that good for the AARP? Where are they? Good question, I don't know.
CARLSON: And it flies in the face of the entire debate that we've been having for the last year about our national debt.
VARNEY: Right.
CARLSON: I mean, we're just talking about how do we try to cut billions of dollars because our debt has reached 15 trillion and now, this is pure politics in my mind. This is why both sides are calling for what I believe to be the new normal where people aren't going to pay payroll tax. They're just not going to pay it. Like high gas prices. New normal. [Fox News Channel, Fox & Friends, 12/21/11]
In Fact, Economists Agree, An Extension Of The Payroll Tax Cut Would Boost Employment And The Economy
Frank: "Perhaps The Most Promising" Policy To Reduce Unemployment "Is A Payroll Tax Holiday." In a June 25 New York Times op-ed, Robert Frank, economics professor at Cornell University, wrote:
If the economy could generate jobs at the median wage for even half of these people, national income would grow by more than 10 times the total interest cost of the 2011 deficit (which was less than $40 billion). So anyone who says that reducing the deficit is more urgent than reducing unemployment is saying, in effect, that we should burn hundreds of billions of dollars worth of goods and services in a national bonfire.
We ought to be tackling both problems at once. But in today's fractious political climate, many promising dual-purpose remedies -- like infrastructure investments that would generate large and rapid returns -- are called unthinkable, in the false belief that they would impoverish our grandchildren. Yet there are other ways to attack unemployment that could garner bipartisan support.
Perhaps the most promising is a payroll tax holiday. The payroll tax was originally meant to pay for Social Security, and in recent years, employees and employers have each contributed 6.2 percent of total salary -- with no additional levies on salaries beyond $106,800. Congress should both declare an immediate payroll tax holiday for employees and exempt employers from making contributions for newly hired workers -- and keep both provisions in effect until the end of next year. [The New York Times, 6/25/11]
Seidman: "To Boost Private Sector Spending And Jobs," Congress Should Implement An "Immediate Suspension Of The Entire Employee Payroll Tax." In a July 17 op-ed in Delaware's News Journal, University of Delaware economics professor Laurence Seidman wrote:
To boost private sector spending and jobs, any budget deal negotiated by the president and Congress should contain an immediate suspension of the entire employee payroll tax through 2012.
Why? Because leaving more money in people's paychecks will cause them to spend more, and in response to their spending, private sector employers will expand production and create private sector jobs. Without this stimulus to the private sector, the economy is likely to fall back into a deep recession.
[...]
According to the simulations, if the suspension begins promptly, then in the fourth quarter of 2012 the unemployment rate would be 1 percentage point lower than it would have been without the temporary employee payroll tax suspension. [News Journal, 7/17/11, accessed via Nexis]
Tyson: Jobs Plan Should Include "At The Very Least" An Extension Of "The Temporary Payroll Tax Cut For Employees." In a September 6 post on the New York Times' Room for Debate blog, University of California, Berkeley professor and former Council of Economic Advisers chairwoman Laura Tyson wrote:
The labor market is suffering from two problems: first, an immediate jobs gap, primarily the result of the collapse in demand after the 2008 financial crisis, and second, a long-term gap in rewarding jobs for American workers, primarily the result of skill-biased technological change and global competition.
The jobs gap requires additional fiscal measures to increase private spending and promote job creation. At the very least, the temporary payroll tax cut for employees enacted at the end of 2010 should be extended and a temporary payroll tax cut for employers that increase their payrolls or a tax credit for new hires should be introduced. [The New York Times, 9/6/11]
For more on the benefits of an extension of the payroll tax cut SEE HERE.
Varney Has A History Of Promoting Tax Cuts For The Wealthy, Claiming They Raise Revenue
Varney: "How Do You Grow The Economy? In My Opinion, Tax Reform. Lower Rates, Fewer Deductions, More Revenue To The Treasury." During the November 22 broadcast of Fox News' Fox & Friends, Varney claimed lower tax rates lead to more revenue. From the broadcast:
KILMEADE: So, let's talk about the downgrade. I'm only kidding. Let's do this. How about this: The New York Times postulates that maybe this is going to work out good because in 2013, the Bush tax cuts go away, and the 1.2 trillion in cuts, it'll get us on the negative term when it comes to the deficit, and a lot of people don't really care that much about defense, and they're willing to take these cuts and this increase in taxes.
VARNEY: If you think that the way to tackle our debt problem is to raise taxes and cut the military, OK, I suppose this is a good thing. If you think that that will have a good outcome for our debt and our economy, yeah, OK, The Times has a point. I think the exact opposite. The way to fix the debt problem is not with higher taxes and cutting the military, it's to grow the economy. How do you grow the economy? In my opinion, tax reform. Lower rates, fewer deductions, more revenue to the Treasury. Better economy. [Fox News, Fox & Friends, 11/22/11, via Media Matters]
Varney: "History Shows That You Get More Money To The Treasury By Lowering Tax Rates Than By Raising Tax Rates." From the June 17 edition of Fox News' Fox & Friends:
VARNEY: When you tax at 70 percent -- if you go back to the Carter years, and so that people who are supposedly wealthy lose 70 cents on every dollar they make above a certain level -- you do that and, you actually take in less money in total taxes than if you have the rate all the way down at 35 percent, where it is now.
In other words, the academic left, like Robert Reich, they want to get back to the Carter years -- very high tax rates on the rich -- because they want to -- they think they are going to pull in a ton of money to pay for Medicare and Medicaid and social services. They are wrong. History shows that you get more money to the Treasury by lowering tax rates than by raising tax rates.
GRETCHEN CARLSON (co-host): How? I mean, because on its face, you would think, well, how does that happen?
VARNEY: Because lower tax rates -- the money comes out of the woodwork. The rich stop hiding it all over the place; they stop sending it overseas. They're quite prepared to pay 28 percent or 30 percent or whatever it is. They're prepared to pay that low rate. And that stimulates the economy, so the economy grows, and tax revenues grow as the economy grows. That's the basic math here. [Fox News, Fox & Friends, 6/17/11, via Media Matters]
Varney: "Historically...When You Lower Rates On The Rich, You Actually Bring More Money To The Treasury." From the August 3, 2010, edition of Fox News' Fox & Friends:
VARNEY: Historically, it shows that when you raise [tax] rates, you actually bring in over the long term less money to the Treasury and the reverse is true as well. When you lower rates on the rich, you actually bring in more money to the treasury. What President Obama is doing, he's playing politics. I hate to say playing politics but this is a political issue. The very core of President Obama's administration is raise taxes on the rich, redistribute the wealth. That's what's -- that's what he's all about on January 1. Not economics. It's politics. [Fox News, Fox & Friends, 8/3/10, via Media Matters]
Varney: Tax Cuts Caused "A Gigantic Increase In Revenues To The Federal Treasury." From the July 27, 2010 edition of Fox News' The O'Reilly Factor:
VARNEY: The United States economy took off after Newt Gingrich swept Congress, the House of Representatives and the Senate in 1994 and the economy was certain of a cap on spending. It was at that point that we achieved enormous rates of growth, after the Republicans in 1994.
If you really want to go back and be historically accurate, look at the tax cuts under John F. Kennedy, under Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush. They cut tax rates, and very soon after, there was a gigantic increase in revenues to the federal treasury, reducing deficits. That's historically accurate. [Fox News, The O'Reilly Factor, 7/27/10, via Media Matters]
In Fact, Economists -- Including Bush Advisers -- Reject Claim That Tax Cuts In The Past Have Increased Revenue
EPI: Bush Tax Cuts "Added $2.6 Trillion To The Public Debt Over 2001-10." In a September 26 article, Andrew Fieldhouse of the Economic Policy Institute (EPI) wrote:
A spending-cuts-only approach is regressive in that it forces the brunt of deficit reduction on the backs of poor and working families while ignoring a prime culprit of the budget deficit: the expensive, ineffective, and unfair Bush-era tax cuts. These top-heavy tax cuts added $2.6 trillion to the public debt over 2001-10 and will add $3.8 trillion to deficits over the next decade if fully continued. [EPI, 9/26/11]
Bartlett: Revenue Has Been Historically Low Because "Taxes Were Cut In 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2006." In a July 26 New York Times blog post, Bruce Bartlett, former policy adviser to Presidents Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush, wrote:
In a previous post, I noted that federal taxes as a share of gross domestic product were at their lowest level in generations. The Congressional Budget Office expects revenue to be just 14.8 percent of G.D.P. this year; the last year it was lower was 1950, when revenue amounted to 14.4 percent of G.D.P.
But revenue has been below 15 percent of G.D.P. since 2009, and the last time we had three years in a row when revenue as a share of G.D.P. was that low was 1941 to 1943.
Revenue has averaged 18 percent of G.D.P. since 1970 and a little more than that in the postwar era. At a similar stage in previous business cycles, two years past the trough, revenue was considerably higher: 18 percent of G.D.P. in 1977 after the 1973-75 recession; 17.3 percent of G.D.P. in 1984 after the 1981-82 recession, and 17.5 percent of G.D.P. in 1993 after the 1990-91 recession. Revenue was markedly lower, however, at this point after the 2001 recession and was just 16.2 percent of G.D.P. in 2003.
The reason, of course, is that taxes were cut in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2006.
[...]
According to a recent C.B.O. report, they reduced revenue by at least $2.9 trillion below what it otherwise would have been between 2001 and 2011. Slower-than-expected growth reduced revenue by another $3.5 trillion. [The New York Times, 7/26/11]
Krugman: After Reagan's 1981 Tax Cuts, "Revenues Are Permanently Reduced Relative To What They Would Otherwise Have Been." In a July 2010, post on his New York Times blog, Nobel Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman wrote that "the revenue track under Reagan looks a lot like the track under Bush: a drop in revenues, then a resumption of growth, but no return to the previous trend." He added, "This is exactly what you would expect to see if supply-side economics were just plain wrong: revenues are permanently reduced relative to what they would otherwise have been." [The New York Times, 7/15/10]
Bush CEA Chair Mankiw: Claim That Broad-Based Income Tax Cuts Increase Revenue Is Not "Credible." Economist Greg Mankiw, who also served as chair of the Bush Council of Economic Advisers (CEA), wrote on his blog on July 2, 2007:
I used the phrase "charlatans and cranks" in the first edition of my principles textbook to describe some of the economic advisers to Ronald Reagan, who told him that broad-based income tax cuts would have such large supply-side effects that the tax cuts would raise tax revenue. I did not find such a claim credible, based on the available evidence. I never have, and I still don't.
[...]
My other work has remained consistent with this view. In a paper on dynamic scoring, written while I was working at the White House, Matthew Weinzierl and I estimated that a broad-based income tax cut (applying to both capital and labor income) would recoup only about a quarter of the lost revenue through supply-side growth effects. For a cut in capital income taxes, the feedback is larger--about 50 percent--but still well under 100 percent. A chapter on dynamic scoring in the 2004 Economic Report of the President says about the the [sic] same thing. [Greg Mankiw, 7/2/07]
Former Bush Economic Adviser Samwick: "Tax Cuts Have Not Fueled Record Revenues." In a January 2007 blog post titled "New Year's Plea," Andrew Samwick, former chief economist for George W. Bush's Council on Economic Advisers, wrote:
You [in the Bush administration] are smart people. You know that the tax cuts have not fueled record revenues. You know what it takes to establish causality. You know that the first order effect of cutting taxes is to lower tax revenues. We all agree that the ultimate reduction in tax revenues can be less than this first order effect, because lower tax rates encourage greater economic activity and thus expand the tax base. No thoughtful person believes that this possible offset more than compensated for the first effect for these tax cuts. Not a single one. [Vox Baby, 1/3/07]
For more on how lower taxes do not bring more revenue to the Treasury, SEE HERE, SEE HERE, and SEE HERE.
Varney Also Attacked The Earned Income Tax Credit, Another Tax Policy Designed To Benefit Low- And Middle-Class Workers
Varney On The Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC): It's A "Cash Welfare Scheme." From the June 15 edition of Fox News' Fox & Friends:
VARNEY: Whenever you've got a cash welfare system you are going to have people gaming that system. What you have not got on the screen is the Earned Income Tax Credit, which is by far the biggest cash -- I'm going to call it a welfare scheme. That is known as the most corrupt government program. Billions of your dollars going out there when they should not be going out there; same with the Supplemental Security Income program. It really is a scandal. At a point where we are running out of money, running a massive deficit, and Social Security itself is in trouble. [Fox News, Fox & Friends, 7/15/11, via Media Matters]
Varney: EITC "A Form Of Welfare, Income Redistribution." During the May 19 edition of Fox Business' Varney & Co., Varney claimed that along other social programs like food stamps, unemployment insurance and Medicaid, the EITC was "a form of income welfare redistribution." [Fox Business, Varney & Co., 5/19/11, via Media Matters]
- In fact, According To The Non-Partisan Brookings Institute "The EITC Has Proved To Be Remarkably Successful In Reducing Poverty. In a February 2006 report titled "The Earned Income Tax Credit At Age 30: What We Know," Brookings researcher Steve Holt asserted, "the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC) has become a robust and largely successful component of American labor and antipoverty policy." Additionally, Holt asserted:
The EITC has proved remarkably successful in reducing poverty. In 2003, the EITC lifted 4.4 million people in low-income, working families out of poverty, more than one-half of them children. Today, the EITC lifts more children out of poverty than any other social program or category of programs. Without it, the poverty rate among children would be 25 percent higher (Greenstein 2005). The Council of Economic Advisers (1998) found that more than one-half of the decline in child poverty between 1993 and 1997 could be explained by changes in taxes, and most important was the EITC. Another study found that from 1995 through 1999, the EITC reduced the overall poverty rate by 1.5 percentage points, even though only about one-third of poor households qualify for the credit (Hoffman and Seidman 2003). The total poverty gap -- the aggregate difference between poor families' resources and the poverty threshold -- for families with children would have been 20 percent higher in 1999 without the EITC (Ziliak 2004).[Brookings Institute, February 2006]
For More On Varney's Partisan Economic Analysis SEE HERE.
















"Santa, pretty please, bring that guy in the mansion down the road a tax cut so he can create a job for me."
The "wealthy as job creators" meme blows a huge hole in the bootstrappy can-do spirit they claim to champion.
I don't really understand the "wealthy as job creators" argument. The only reason they create jobs is in order to support their company growth, it isn't some sort of charity work. If it was, their company wouldn't be all too successful, I would guess.
Pray tell me how you are enlightened?
Or is that simply what you see yourself as?
In other words it's being self assured to the point of ignorance.
Yes feel free to bolster your delusions and double down on your stupidity. I know you are incapable of anything else as brainwashed as you are. Sorry
Lone enlightened vessel? You are the stupidest of the stupid and among the most brainwashed creatures in history. Of all the delusional nonsense you have ever posted that one breaks the bank
It is Fox and those like them that claim that the rich are the job creators.
Also, "honest truth lies in between" implies that neither side is telling the truth. That's not the case here. One side is telling falsehoods and the other is calling them on their falsehoods.
If person A suggests that we kill 50,000 people and person B suggests that we don't kill anyone, the "honest truth" is not a number between 0 and 50,000. The "honest truth" is 0.
A grown man shouldn't have a problem playing by the same rules he imposes on others. Tell me why you disagree.
For some strange reason, whenever people want right-wing liars to be held accountable for their actions, you feel the need to extrapolate that into some form of blanket censorship. You have no logical basis to make that leap.
Try again?
I'm also not sure how disconnected you have to be to talk about specific measures, such as disbarment or trials, and then say that all you get are "vague platitudes" regarding accountability. If you want to challenge the specifics of ideas, fine, but the things you're talking about clearly apply to individual behavior, which does not qualify as silencing the whole of right-wing media by any stretch of the imagination.
Unless you're advocating a double standard, of course.
It especially doesn't make any sense for you to demand that I take on someone else's argument when I said myself you can challenge the specifics of their ideas. Trying to move the goalposts to make me accountable for what someone else posted simply reeks of desperation.
If you had a leg to stand on, you wouldn't have to claim that I'm "lying" when I state the obvious fact that I didn't agree with you above. That doesn't even come close to making sense. If I was lying, you'd be able to demonstrate how I agreed with you.
you figure it out which one hits home. :)
I'm not trying to divert anything. I'm pointing out, as always, that you are a shameless hypocrite.
Besides, if you justify your assumptions based on your own empty assertions, you hardly have any room to demand proof of anything from anyone else.
You don't have the credibility to judge me, in any event. This is the problem with your behavior that I warned you about years ago.
You don't have the credibility to judge me, in any event. This is the problem with your behavior that I warned you about years ago.
You are a LIAR. Period
What everyone knows is you are a LIAR. It is that simple
We both know why, because you are a pathalogical liar and care nothing about the truth. And you are a punk
So, how would I handle your example? I would probably have a professional board in place, as we have for doctors, lawyers, architects, etc., who would have the power to "disbar" journalists who do not meet a certain level of professional ethics. If board certified journalists wanted to maintain their professional standing, they would refuse to play Roger Ailes' game of hide the sausage with the American public.
See, it's not government interference, no more than it is when the State Bar Association takes away a lawyer's license to practice for misconduct or malpractice. But since your profession seems to be Internet discussion board trolling, you probably don't understand professional standards. Sad.
An omission should be treated in a similar manner if intent is shown behind it. Regardless of whether intent is present or not, it should be ensured that omissions should be corrected as soon as possible as they may result in news becoming misleading (which is the whole point of such a board in the first place).
Ideological slants should be avoided in news as far as possible, and if opinions are present displaying such, they should be indicated as as such.
You know from your post it seems that your worries stem from a board not being able to deal with all the little nuances that can occur. However such a board exists in American society that deal with little nuances all the time in an issue called trials. In trials where a jury is present, they are the board responsible for handling such nuances, and the judge there is also handling such nuances with his ruling and overseeing of the process. Complicated? Yes. Infallible? No.
However if you'd worry so much about nuances that may result in the issue of ruling on media correctness, to the point of saying it should not be altogether....why not say the same for rulings on all other criminal and civil cases?
After all companies have to be careful about how they label products and can be sued if they misinform on their product (through errors or omissions, blatant or otherwise).
The media, news media especially, is in the position of greater responsibility as it is their place to disseminate information to the masses. So yeah why CAN'T they be held accountable judicially?
Deluded asks "why CAN'T [the news media] be held accountable judicially?"
The obvious answer is: the First Amendment to the Constitution specifically prohibits such an action. "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press".
Conservative/liberal, Republican/Democrat, or otherwise, it ought to send a chill down every American's spine to hear people seriously suggest that the government police what the media can or cannot say.
The way to combat misinformation in the media is through more information and watch dog groups, such as Media Matters. It is not through the creation of a government entity to police the speech of news organizations.
Regardless of how one feels about Fox News (and it's very clear how the vast majority of people on this site feel), and regardless of the unconstitutionality of such a proposal, do you not find it the least bit disturbing to advocate for government speech controls on the primary mechanism the citizenry have for holding government accountable??
I get that there is a lot of hatred for Fox News, but think about what you are truly advocating.
Oh wait, didn't Romney say something along those lines....?
If a news organization libels a person, they can be sued by that person. The government is prohibited from suing a news organization for libel by the First Amendment.
It should also be noted that the Supreme Court has held that the right to free speech and a free press outweighs the rights of government officials in that government officials must meet a higher standard of proof for a libel case than that of ordinary citizens. I mention that to further illustrate how serious the freedom of the press is taken by the courts.
For you to suggest that the government should hold the press accountable for what they say is chilling. It smacks of Soviet-style censorship. I know you hate Fox News and all, but seriously consider what you have advocated. You want the government to be able to prosecute the media. It is the media which provides the primary mechanism by which the government is held accountable to its citizens. That is the very reason why the freedom of the press was established via the First Amendment.
I understand there may be a difference as to how the laws are established, but as long as we're talking about factual matters that can be determined through the judicial process, what's the difference between a citizen filing a suit and the government doing so?
YOU can sue a media outlet for libel, but the government cannot. That is the difference. As I stated above, the First Amendment puts restrictions on the government, not on the people.
It's the same way as Hank Williams Jr. having a right to free speech, but ESPN removed his Monday Night Football intro because of what he said. ESPN has the right to limit Hank William Jr's speech on their network, but the government does not. The government cannot sue or prosecute Hank Williams for his speech because the First Amendment prohibits it from doing so. And so it is with a news organization. Individuals (or other organizations) can sue a news organization, but the government cannot.
Also, as I mentioned in a reply to someone else above, even government officials are somewhat limited in their ability to sue for libel because the Supreme Court has held that the right to a free press outweighs the rights of government officials and so they must meet a higher burden of proof in a libel case than do ordinary citizens. (1964, The New York Times v. Sullivan)
I truly find it incredulous that you, or anyone else, would serious suggest that there needs to be a government entity that policies the news media. Think about where that will lead. There will come a day when people you don't agree with are in charge of the government. Do you seriously want them to have the power to essentially censor the media??
What I'm trying to figure out is how discouraging lies is "censorship". Why should anyone have a right to deceive the public? I specified a judicial process anyway, so I'm not sure how the people "in charge" have quite as much power as you imply, and certainly not directly.
The point is that rights are not absolute, and it's hard to imagine that they were intended to be so.
Discouraging lies is not censorship in and of itself, but it will inevitably lead to censorship -- either outright censorship or it will have such a chilling effect on the media so as to be indistinguishable from censorship.
Specifying that it would be a judicial process doesn't really change the potential political nature of it. The reason is that it would be the Justice Department which would have to bring the charges of lying against a media outlet. Is there really any doubt that a given administration's Justice Department would be less than enthusiastic in pursuing charges against a friendly media outlet and more enthusiastic about bringing charges against an unfriendly one? Sure, even if it brings charges, the Justice Department would have to prove those charges in court, but I think just the very real threat of having to defend themselves in court would have a chilling effect on the media.
Your point about rights not being absolute is well taken. However, I believe the freedom of the press is one which should be absolute, as the press is the primary mechanism by which the citizenry can hold the government accountable. A press which is afraid to report on the government because of fear of prosecution is a press which is effectively controlled by the government. As I said before, liberal/conservative, Republican/Democrat, or otherwise, it ought to send a chill down your spine to give the government that kind of power over the press.
That being said, I agree about the imbalance from one administration to another as to what is prosecuted and what isn't. There would still some bipartisan benefit, though, keeping people honest regarding the administration of the time. Ultimately I just have a hard time imagining that the same people who came up with the electoral college would look at the current situation and say that it's fine for people with money to throw as much garbage into the public dialogue as they want in order to gain political power. Surely some measure for balance would be recommended.
What do you want as an answer to your question?
Flail troll flail.
YOUR post was five minutes before dan replied. So yes - you put words in his mouth. Now STFU before you embarass yourself like this againLong way to quittin time at the troll factory.
Close but no cigar, jamesB. What the partisans on the right actually say is that only the rich create jobs. Only the top 1% is somehow is capable of making a job or jobs.
What the partisans are the left are doing is calling 'bullspit' on that argument, because most jobs are created by small business first when the economy begins to improve.
Small business is really the heart of this nation, but stopping at all the small businesses became a real pain in the neck sometime during the 1960s to 1970s but for sure by Reagan's election in 1980 for the Republicans. They decided it would be much easier just to ask a couple of multinational conglomerates to pay their campaign costs, and so they became the champions of the mega corporation, corporatocracy, and the uber-wealthy.
Don't forget the reason they want to expand - because there is demand for it. It is not the business owners at all who create the jobs, they simply are fulfilling a demand in order to turn a profit. It is the demand that ultimately creates the jobs, the business simply facilitates it.
Actually no one said that you are a LIAR and your strawman stupidity is tiresome and boring
The job creators are the consumers who spend the large part of their income on necessities and wants instead of saving the money.
The arguments to the contrary being made, jamesb, are self-evident (okay, virtually self-evident) BS. They are all about the preservation of privilege and the continued exacerbation of the inequality that we as a society have allowed to develop over the last 30 years, to the detriment of our society and our political discourse.
Followed by this to someone that did not ask jimbob anything...
Take your own advice a-hole. Oh...and STFU.
Most people who get rich in business do so buy selling something... either their talent, time or a product they make. Who buys these things?
Now, there are exceptions; rich people who get rich without producing anything of value... like Rush Limbaugh and the paid liars on FOX "News", but they're market anomalies, and would never survive if they depended solely on market forces.
Really, the top 1% should be thanking the rest of us instead of engaging in class warfare against those that made them wealthy.
And of course there are those who made their money the old fashioned way; they inherited it. How many of the Fortune 500 wealthiest actually earned their wealth? The Walton's alone account for 6. The Pritzker's are another half dozen who didn't do a darn thing to earn their wealth. These individuals get all or most of their income as capital gains.
While actual poor people may not create jobs, the job I currently have was created by someone with a middle class income level. He mortgaged his house, and scrimped and borrowed every penny he could to buy a CNC machine. I run it for him. He is certainly NOT wealthy, and yet he created a job. Two jobs, actually, because he still runs the place.
He saw a market. He invested all he had, which wasn't a lot, really, and here we are. We're about to add a third person, at least part time, to help me out. I think this is going to be a great year for the business.
Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital.
No poor person ever borrowed money to start their own business and worked it into a success.
No one ever made money or hired anyone providing low income housing to poor people.
The "rich as job creators" argument falls to pieces because it claims that giving the rich everything they want will lead to job creation. It hasn't and it doesn't.
People buying goods and services drives job creation, always has, always will.
whoa. the left is always telling me that is a myth. glad you agree with me that it is not.
Down to outright lies is it?
but please, please, tell me liberals don't say that and that you agree that a poor person can become rich. tell me that, please.
If you are talking in terms of absolutes AGAIN, let me say this: You're not doing yourself and anyone else a favour by defining terms in the form of absolutes simply because it helps you "win" by pointing out that such absolutes cannot exist. Above in the thread, the absolute you tried to put forward was that it is absurd that NO rich person EVER created a job. What everyone was talking about however was that in general, the demographic known as the rich has not been known to create the jobs as TOUTED by Reaganomics. No one is trying to debate absolutes here but you, shifting the issue to this absolute ensures that no common round is reached because that absolute is not something that is being disputed.
In this instance, your absolute is that NO poor person who works hard can EVER get rich. That of course isn't true, there are examples of poor people working hard and getting rich. However the notion being disputed here is that in GENERAL the poor people who work hard WILL get rich.
This concept is being expoused by FOX and the right to decry social welfare programs by stating that the poor don't need help, they just need to help themselves by working hard. That of course is manifestly untrue, for someone below the poverty line, even getting above it is really hard, let alone becoming rich. And that is with EFFORT, these poor people often work several jobs just to get by, the MYTH perpetrated by FOX and the right that they are poor because they are lazy is false as a generic description.
Poor people, those that work hard, in general are unlikely to become rich. Some might make it, but most would still remain trapped below the poverty line. This is what's being disputed, not your absolute of "no poor person has ever become rich through hard work".
I already stated... Now pound salt a-hole.
I'd LIKE to say that I believe a poor person can become rich, jamesB, but the truth is, it's easier to move from poverty to the upper class in most of Europe than it is in America right now. I don't think it's become impossible, but I do know it has become far less likely. Mostly thanks to piling up all the wealth of the nation in the hands of a tiny handful of people.
You are a LIAR. It is just that simple. You lie constantly. You are a pathalogical liar. You are also a liar both THIS
.
And this
Those two statements are contradictary. Both cannot be true. So again you are a LIAR
Moving the goal posts much? First it's that it became a successful business, now it's becoming rich?
And I do believe what they are actually saying is that it is not commonplace for someone to start from zero and become incredibly wealthy. That is the myth. It is, however, fairly commonplace to start from little and become successful.
You are such a dishonest punk. Shaggles didnt say rich people dont create jobs. She said it was falacious to say ONLY rich people create jobs. Look we all know you are a brainwashed Randininsta and we all know what you have been brainwashed to spew out these ignorant talking points no matter what reality is. Personally I am tired of answering the same stupid and inane questions from you EVERY TIME the same topic comes up. Since you are just too STUPID to understand the concepts why dont you do us all a favor and STFU?
I.e., the man is a shameless whore, to put it in plain English.
I am sure that Varney chose that particular president and that tax rate as an example purely at random. I mean, he wouldn't intentionally ignore the 90%+ tax rate that we had under Eisenhower (an "R"), would he? The troglodytes might actually realize that the "Leave it to Beaver" years that they miss so much may not have been as rosy as they recall.
At $1,000,000,000, that would mean that I would STILL get over $300M. I'm not going to cry over that. And I certainly would be grateful for the opportunity to be so wealthy that I would want to help those that made me wealthy...because that would make me even MORE wealthy. But, before the "well, you can send more money to government if you want" people pipe up, I would demand that others do the same as I because they're in the position they're in for the same reason I'm in the position I'm in....because of the help from those that made me wealthy.
Bill Gates is one of the richest people on this planet today. He had an idea, sure, and he's super smart, I grant you. However, without others, he would just be a smart man with an idea. His bank account would look no different from mine.
Also, before anyone claims otherwise, at 70% (or 90%+), you aren't 'losing' 70%/90%+ of your entire income in taxes...it's a sliding scale.
Letting the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy expire would barely move their individual wealth but it would do wonders for the economy.
what is your incentive to earn a million next year then? i mean if the govt takes 70% of it, why bother earning that much? you could cut it in half, close down a plant or two, shed some of those people who work for you because you won't need them to help you make a million anymore. what about that? why would you be stupid enough to work hard for a million bucks when you can take twice as much time off and downsize half and make 500k and still net not that much less?
Is it stupid to earn more money by working harder?
For tax year 2011:
From 0-8,500 = 10%
From 8,500-34,500 = 15%
From 34,500-83,600 = 25%
From 83,600-174,400 = 28%
From 174,400-379,150 = 33%
From 379,150 and above = 35%
If you make 100k precisely:
8500*0.1 = $850
(34,500-8,500)*0.15 = $3,900
(83,600-34,500)*0.25 = $12,275
(100,000-83,600)*0.28 = $4,592
Total tax bill for 100k = $20,767 or about 20.77%, leaving you $79,233
Now, if you were to make 150k, your total tax would be $34,767 leaving you $115,233.
Now, if you were to go above the $174,400 level, let's see what happens and you make $174,500. Hundred bucks more.
8500*0.1 = $850
(34,500-8,500)*0.15 = $3,900
(83,600-34,500)*0.25 = $12,275
(174,400-83,600)*0.28 = $4,592
(174,500-174,400)*0.33 = $33
So, making hundred bucks more will increase your tax 'burden' by $33, netting you an extra $77.
So, tell me again how making more money is not an incentive to work harder?
8500*0.1 = $850
(34,500-8,500)*0.15 = $3,900
(83,600-34,500)*0.25 = $12,275
(174,400-83,600)*0.28 = $25,454
(174,500-174,400)*0.33 = $33
Total tax 'burden' = 23.84%
Earning $100 more would net you 30 extra dollars in your pocket.
if you want to load it up with all sorts of disclaimers and qualifiers and back away from something so radical now, i understand. i would too. we will just forget you said it.
I expect an apology for your fib...but I doubt I'll get one.
Even if you ARE being taxed at 70% (and no one is saying that that is the case or SHOULD be the case, it's not the issue of focus here). The motivation for not only being in a high income bracket and making MORE money STILL holds because....well you will be KEEPING more money by making more money!
Let's put this into perspective: Let's say you are in an income bracket with 70% tax on income. You earn $100 so your taxes will be $70, which leaves you with $30 for (presumably) savings.
Now you work a little harder and increase income by another $100. That means that now your taxes will be $140 (double that of last time). Your savings however will also double, from $30 to $60.
The increment in the money not taxed is the motivation behind people wanting to earn more despite being taxed more, since they get to save more by earning more.
Daniel put it forward very clearly, if you didn't get what he meant you either have problems with comprehension or deliberately chose to ignore the point.
Once again you do the asking an inane and stupid question that proves only that you are too stupid to understand the concept. Why do you think that is clever? We already know you are stupid
If you are happy to let your employees do all of the work and you just skim the cream off of the top, why do you deserve the furits of someone else's labor? If you just want to take advantage of the lower labor rates in India, what have you contributed and why do you deserve any break for being a "job creater"?
What we have done is create incentives for manipulating the 'system'. Hard work, innovation, or other benefits to society are not factors.
so he was only joking?
I would. At the appropriate amount, where's the harm? Let's incentivize people to either keep their money in their business to create jobs, or they can take it out and the government can take its share to create jobs.
I'm immediately suspicious of someone who spends so much time in the company of the Hamster and these junior varsity idiots.
At no time did he provide any insights or demonstrate learning had taken place. Do people really feel compelled to respond to this troll?
In fact, economists agree that an extension of the payroll tax cut would boost employment and help the economy, while the cuts supported by Varney would not have a positive impact on revenues or the economy.
Meanwhile here is how the Associated Press portrayed that fact:
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9RPKO9G0.htm
Q: What about Democrats?
A: They say the tax cut and unemployment coverage must be renewed to protect the millions who would be hurt Jan. 1. They also have no desire to surrender leverage by abandoning the two-month deal negotiated by the Senate's Reid and McConnell.
But they, too, have political motivations.
Democrats cite economists who say the payroll tax would pump enough money into the economy to help it grow slightly next year. Knowing that the 2012 presidential and congressional races are likely to hinge on the economy's performance, they want to take no chances with anything that might tip the economy in the wrong direction. To them, that means the payroll tax cut and extra jobless coverage must be extended.
Yes, that's right.
According to The Associated Press, helping the economy is a "political motivation" on the part of the Democrats. Presumably, that means that they should let it fail to avoid being accused of playing politics.
John