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Tax-Cut Crusader Varney Supports The Wrong Tax Cuts

December 21, 2011 1:53 pm ET — 221 Comments

On the December 21 edition of Fox News' Fox & Friends, Fox Business host Stuart Varney, who has repeatedly promoted tax cuts for the wealthy, claimed he was "not so sure" a year-long extension of the payroll tax cut would create jobs. In fact, economists agree that an extension of the payroll tax cut would boost employment and help the economy, while the cuts supported by Varney would not have a positive impact on revenues or the economy.

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Varney Suggests The Payroll Tax Extension Would Not Create Jobs

Varney: "Does [An Extension Of The Payroll Tax] Create Jobs?" During the December 21 broadcast of Fox News' Fox & Friends, Fox Business host Stuart Varney questioned the idea that a year extension of the payroll tax cut creates jobs, ultimately concluding he "[wasn't] so sure." From the broadcast:

STEVE DOOCY (co-host): What we've got here is a big difference of opinion. Stuart Varney joins us right now live. It's very clear they're both standing their ground.

VARNEY: Wait a second, that's all politics.

GRETCHEN CARLSON (co-host): Yes, of course.

VARNEY: If you just put politics completely aside just for one moment, OK, and it's very hard to do. Put the politics aside and look at this policy. Is this a good policy for the American people? Is this good for the economy? Does it create jobs?

DOOCY: The two month payroll tax cut.

CARLSON: Thank you. Thank you for finally asking that question!

VARNEY: OK. Here's the question. If you extend the payroll tax holiday and you increase jobless benefits, that costs a quarter of a trillion dollars. OK? No politics here. That's just pure money. A quarter of a trillion dollars.

DOOCY: Taken from where? Social Security.

VARNEY: Taken from mostly Social Security and the general fund of tax revenue. You partly pay for this with? A tax. A fee on mortgages and refi[nancing]. Is this good policy?

DOOCY: You know what I am wondering--

VARNEY: Costs a quarter trillion. Do you create new jobs and you pay for it by taxing mortgages? I'm not so sure.

BRIAN KILMEADE (co-host): You have an interesting -- that's one part of the debate is does it even work? Do we need it? I guess most of Congress does because everybody agrees in Congress that we need it.

[...]

VARNEY: The payroll tax holiday extension essentially removes about $110 billion next year from the Social Security Trust Fund. It takes -- from Social Security revenues, that's what I should say. $110 Billion taken away from Social Security. Is that good for Social Security? Is that good for retirees? Is that good for the AARP? Where are they? Good question, I don't know.

CARLSON: And it flies in the face of the entire debate that we've been having for the last year about our national debt.

 VARNEY: Right.

CARLSON: I mean, we're just talking about how do we try to cut billions of dollars because our debt has reached 15 trillion and now, this is pure politics in my mind. This is why both sides are calling for what I believe to be the new normal where people aren't going to pay payroll tax. They're just not going to pay it. Like high gas prices. New normal. [Fox News Channel, Fox & Friends, 12/21/11]

In Fact, Economists Agree, An Extension Of The Payroll Tax Cut Would Boost Employment And The Economy

Frank: "Perhaps The Most Promising" Policy To Reduce Unemployment "Is A Payroll Tax Holiday." In a June 25 New York Times op-ed, Robert Frank, economics professor at Cornell University, wrote:

If the economy could generate jobs at the median wage for even half of these people, national income would grow by more than 10 times the total interest cost of the 2011 deficit (which was less than $40 billion). So anyone who says that reducing the deficit is more urgent than reducing unemployment is saying, in effect, that we should burn hundreds of billions of dollars worth of goods and services in a national bonfire.

We ought to be tackling both problems at once. But in today's fractious political climate, many promising dual-purpose remedies -- like infrastructure investments that would generate large and rapid returns -- are called unthinkable, in the false belief that they would impoverish our grandchildren. Yet there are other ways to attack unemployment that could garner bipartisan support.

Perhaps the most promising is a payroll tax holiday. The payroll tax was originally meant to pay for Social Security, and in recent years, employees and employers have each contributed 6.2 percent of total salary -- with no additional levies on salaries beyond $106,800. Congress should both declare an immediate payroll tax holiday for employees and exempt employers from making contributions for newly hired workers -- and keep both provisions in effect until the end of next year. [The New York Times, 6/25/11]

Seidman: "To Boost Private Sector Spending And Jobs," Congress Should Implement An "Immediate Suspension Of The Entire Employee Payroll Tax." In a July 17 op-ed in Delaware's News Journal, University of Delaware economics professor Laurence Seidman wrote:

To boost private sector spending and jobs, any budget deal negotiated by the president and Congress should contain an immediate suspension of the entire employee payroll tax through 2012.

Why? Because leaving more money in people's paychecks will cause them to spend more, and in response to their spending, private sector employers will expand production and create private sector jobs. Without this stimulus to the private sector, the economy is likely to fall back into a deep recession.

[...]

According to the simulations, if the suspension begins promptly, then in the fourth quarter of 2012 the unemployment rate would be 1 percentage point lower than it would have been without the temporary employee payroll tax suspension. [News Journal, 7/17/11, accessed via Nexis]

Tyson: Jobs Plan Should Include "At The Very Least" An Extension Of "The Temporary Payroll Tax Cut For Employees." In a September 6 post on the New York Times' Room for Debate blog, University of California, Berkeley professor and former Council of Economic Advisers chairwoman Laura Tyson wrote:

The labor market is suffering from two problems: first, an immediate jobs gap, primarily the result of the collapse in demand after the 2008 financial crisis, and second, a long-term gap in rewarding jobs for American workers, primarily the result of skill-biased technological change and global competition.

The jobs gap requires additional fiscal measures to increase private spending and promote job creation. At the very least, the temporary payroll tax cut for employees enacted at the end of 2010 should be extended and a temporary payroll tax cut for employers that increase their payrolls or a tax credit for new hires should be introduced. [The New York Times, 9/6/11]

For more on the benefits of an extension of the payroll tax cut SEE HERE.

Varney Has A History Of Promoting Tax Cuts For The Wealthy, Claiming They Raise Revenue

Varney: "How Do You Grow The Economy? In My Opinion, Tax Reform. Lower Rates, Fewer Deductions, More Revenue To The Treasury." During the November 22 broadcast of Fox News' Fox & Friends, Varney claimed lower tax rates lead to more revenue. From the broadcast:

KILMEADE: So, let's talk about the downgrade. I'm only kidding. Let's do this. How about this: The New York Times postulates that maybe this is going to work out good because in 2013, the Bush tax cuts go away, and the 1.2 trillion in cuts, it'll get us on the negative term when it comes to the deficit, and a lot of people don't really care that much about defense, and they're willing to take these cuts and this increase in taxes.

VARNEY: If you think that the way to tackle our debt problem is to raise taxes and cut the military, OK, I suppose this is a good thing. If you think that that will have a good outcome for our debt and our economy, yeah, OK, The Times has a point. I think the exact opposite. The way to fix the debt problem is not with higher taxes and cutting the military, it's to grow the economy. How do you grow the economy? In my opinion, tax reform. Lower rates, fewer deductions, more revenue to the Treasury. Better economy. [Fox News, Fox & Friends, 11/22/11, via Media Matters]

Varney: "History Shows That You Get More Money To The Treasury By Lowering Tax Rates Than By Raising Tax Rates." From the June 17 edition of Fox News' Fox & Friends:

VARNEY: When you tax at 70 percent -- if you go back to the Carter years, and so that people who are supposedly wealthy lose 70 cents on every dollar they make above a certain level -- you do that and, you actually take in less money in total taxes than if you have the rate all the way down at 35 percent, where it is now.

In other words, the academic left, like Robert Reich, they want to get back to the Carter years -- very high tax rates on the rich -- because they want to -- they think they are going to pull in a ton of money to pay for Medicare and Medicaid and social services. They are wrong. History shows that you get more money to the Treasury by lowering tax rates than by raising tax rates.

GRETCHEN CARLSON (co-host): How? I mean, because on its face, you would think, well, how does that happen?

VARNEY: Because lower tax rates -- the money comes out of the woodwork. The rich stop hiding it all over the place; they stop sending it overseas. They're quite prepared to pay 28 percent or 30 percent or whatever it is. They're prepared to pay that low rate. And that stimulates the economy, so the economy grows, and tax revenues grow as the economy grows. That's the basic math here. [Fox News, Fox & Friends, 6/17/11, via Media Matters]

Varney: "Historically...When You Lower Rates On The Rich, You Actually Bring More Money To The Treasury." From the August 3, 2010, edition of Fox News' Fox & Friends:

VARNEY: Historically, it shows that when you raise [tax] rates, you actually bring in over the long term less money to the Treasury and the reverse is true as well. When you lower rates on the rich, you actually bring in more money to the treasury. What President Obama is doing, he's playing politics. I hate to say playing politics but this is a political issue. The very core of President Obama's administration is raise taxes on the rich, redistribute the wealth. That's what's -- that's what he's all about on January 1. Not economics. It's politics.  [Fox News, Fox & Friends, 8/3/10, via Media Matters]

Varney: Tax Cuts Caused "A Gigantic Increase In Revenues To The Federal Treasury." From the July 27, 2010 edition of Fox News' The O'Reilly Factor:

VARNEY: The United States economy took off after Newt Gingrich swept Congress, the House of Representatives and the Senate in 1994 and the economy was certain of a cap on spending. It was at that point that we achieved enormous rates of growth, after the Republicans in 1994.

If you really want to go back and be historically accurate, look at the tax cuts under John F. Kennedy, under Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush. They cut tax rates, and very soon after, there was a gigantic increase in revenues to the federal treasury, reducing deficits. That's historically accurate. [Fox News, The O'Reilly Factor, 7/27/10, via Media Matters]

In Fact, Economists -- Including Bush Advisers -- Reject Claim That Tax Cuts In The Past Have Increased Revenue

EPI: Bush Tax Cuts "Added $2.6 Trillion To The Public Debt Over 2001-10." In a September 26 article, Andrew Fieldhouse of the Economic Policy Institute (EPI) wrote:

A spending-cuts-only approach is regressive in that it forces the brunt of deficit reduction on the backs of poor and working families while ignoring a prime culprit of the budget deficit: the expensive, ineffective, and unfair Bush-era tax cuts. These top-heavy tax cuts added $2.6 trillion to the public debt over 2001-10 and will add $3.8 trillion to deficits over the next decade if fully continued. [EPI, 9/26/11]

Bartlett: Revenue Has Been Historically Low Because "Taxes Were Cut In 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2006." In a July 26 New York Times blog post, Bruce Bartlett, former policy adviser to Presidents Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush, wrote:

In a previous post, I noted that federal taxes as a share of gross domestic product were at their lowest level in generations. The Congressional Budget Office expects revenue to be just 14.8 percent of G.D.P. this year; the last year it was lower was 1950, when revenue amounted to 14.4 percent of G.D.P.

But revenue has been below 15 percent of G.D.P. since 2009, and the last time we had three years in a row when revenue as a share of G.D.P. was that low was 1941 to 1943.

Revenue has averaged 18 percent of G.D.P. since 1970 and a little more than that in the postwar era. At a similar stage in previous business cycles, two years past the trough, revenue was considerably higher: 18 percent of G.D.P. in 1977 after the 1973-75 recession; 17.3 percent of G.D.P. in 1984 after the 1981-82 recession, and 17.5 percent of G.D.P. in 1993 after the 1990-91 recession. Revenue was markedly lower, however, at this point after the 2001 recession and was just 16.2 percent of G.D.P. in 2003.

The reason, of course, is that taxes were cut in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2006.

[...]

According to a recent C.B.O. report, they reduced revenue by at least $2.9 trillion below what it otherwise would have been between 2001 and 2011. Slower-than-expected growth reduced revenue by another $3.5 trillion. [The New York Times, 7/26/11]

Krugman: After Reagan's 1981 Tax Cuts, "Revenues Are Permanently Reduced Relative To What They Would Otherwise Have Been." In a July 2010, post on his New York Times blog, Nobel Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman wrote that "the revenue track under Reagan looks a lot like the track under Bush: a drop in revenues, then a resumption of growth, but no return to the previous trend." He added, "This is exactly what you would expect to see if supply-side economics were just plain wrong: revenues are permanently reduced relative to what they would otherwise have been." [The New York Times, 7/15/10]

Bush CEA Chair Mankiw: Claim That Broad-Based Income Tax Cuts Increase Revenue Is Not "Credible." Economist Greg Mankiw, who also served as chair of the Bush Council of Economic Advisers (CEA), wrote on his blog on July 2, 2007:

I used the phrase "charlatans and cranks" in the first edition of my principles textbook to describe some of the economic advisers to Ronald Reagan, who told him that broad-based income tax cuts would have such large supply-side effects that the tax cuts would raise tax revenue. I did not find such a claim credible, based on the available evidence. I never have, and I still don't.

[...]

My other work has remained consistent with this view. In a paper on dynamic scoring, written while I was working at the White House, Matthew Weinzierl and I estimated that a broad-based income tax cut (applying to both capital and labor income) would recoup only about a quarter of the lost revenue through supply-side growth effects. For a cut in capital income taxes, the feedback is larger--about 50 percent--but still well under 100 percent. A chapter on dynamic scoring in the 2004 Economic Report of the President says about the the [sic] same thing. [Greg Mankiw, 7/2/07]

Former Bush Economic Adviser Samwick: "Tax Cuts Have Not Fueled Record Revenues." In a January 2007 blog post titled "New Year's Plea," Andrew Samwick, former chief economist for George W. Bush's Council on Economic Advisers, wrote:

You [in the Bush administration] are smart people. You know that the tax cuts have not fueled record revenues. You know what it takes to establish causality. You know that the first order effect of cutting taxes is to lower tax revenues. We all agree that the ultimate reduction in tax revenues can be less than this first order effect, because lower tax rates encourage greater economic activity and thus expand the tax base. No thoughtful person believes that this possible offset more than compensated for the first effect for these tax cuts. Not a single one. [Vox Baby, 1/3/07]

For more on how lower taxes do not bring more revenue to the Treasury, SEE HERE, SEE HERE, and SEE HERE.

Varney Also Attacked The Earned Income Tax Credit, Another Tax Policy Designed To Benefit Low- And Middle-Class Workers 

Varney On The Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC): It's A "Cash Welfare Scheme." From the June 15 edition of Fox News' Fox & Friends:

VARNEY: Whenever you've got a cash welfare system you are going to have people gaming that system. What you have not got on the screen is the Earned Income Tax Credit, which is by far the biggest cash -- I'm going to call it a welfare scheme. That is known as the most corrupt government program. Billions of your dollars going out there when they should not be going out there; same with the Supplemental Security Income program. It really is a scandal. At a point where we are running out of money, running a massive deficit, and Social Security itself is in trouble. [Fox News, Fox & Friends, 7/15/11, via Media Matters]

Varney: EITC "A Form Of Welfare, Income Redistribution." During the May 19 edition of Fox Business' Varney & Co., Varney claimed that along other social programs like food stamps, unemployment insurance and Medicaid, the EITC was "a form of income welfare redistribution." [Fox Business, Varney & Co., 5/19/11, via Media Matters]

  • In fact, According To The Non-Partisan Brookings Institute "The EITC Has Proved To Be Remarkably Successful In Reducing Poverty. In a February 2006 report titled "The Earned Income Tax Credit At Age 30: What We Know," Brookings researcher Steve Holt asserted, "the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC) has become a robust and largely successful component of American labor and antipoverty policy." Additionally, Holt asserted:

The EITC has proved remarkably successful in reducing poverty. In 2003, the EITC lifted 4.4 million people in low-income, working families out of poverty, more than one-half of them children. Today, the EITC lifts more children out of poverty than any other social program or category of programs. Without it, the poverty rate among children would be 25 percent higher (Greenstein 2005). The Council of Economic Advisers (1998) found that more than one-half of the decline in child poverty between 1993 and 1997 could be explained by changes in taxes, and most important was the EITC. Another study found that from 1995 through 1999, the EITC reduced the overall poverty rate by 1.5 percentage points, even though only about one-third of poor households qualify for the credit (Hoffman and Seidman 2003). The total poverty gap -- the aggregate difference between poor families' resources and the poverty threshold -- for families with children would have been 20 percent higher in 1999 without the EITC (Ziliak 2004).[Brookings Institute, February 2006]

For More On Varney's Partisan Economic Analysis SEE HERE.

Expand All Expand 1st Level Collapse All Add Comment
    • Author by shaggles (December 21, 2011 2:14 pm ET)
      9 1
      Varney buys into the same falacy that one of our trolls was arguing the other day: Only rich people can create jobs. All else follows from there.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by pete592 (December 21, 2011 2:22 pm ET)
        9  
        What goes on in the heads of those trolls if they happend to be unemployed? I can only imagine...

        "Santa, pretty please, bring that guy in the mansion down the road a tax cut so he can create a job for me."
        Report Abuse
        • Author by politeradical (December 21, 2011 4:50 pm ET)
          4  
          It was either an illegal immigrant, some nebulous federal regulation, or Obama's job killing black magic that put them out of work.

          The "wealthy as job creators" meme blows a huge hole in the bootstrappy can-do spirit they claim to champion.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by shaggles (December 21, 2011 4:57 pm ET)
            6 1
            You forgot "affirmative action." ;)
            Report Abuse
          • Author by TheRoseLensPuzzle (December 23, 2011 2:53 pm ET)
            1  
            The American Dream - build yourself up into a multimillion dollar company and then make tons of jobs for people who can't work quite as hard as you. Wait, that's not the American Dream.

            I don't really understand the "wealthy as job creators" argument. The only reason they create jobs is in order to support their company growth, it isn't some sort of charity work. If it was, their company wouldn't be all too successful, I would guess.
            Report Abuse
      • Author by nerzog (December 21, 2011 2:32 pm ET)
        5  
        Rich people just bend over and pull jobs out of their butts for fun. If we're lucky, they let us have one.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 2:36 pm ET)
          15
        fine. "rich" people don't create jobs. "poor" people most certainly don't create jobs. who then does create jobs? i am not asking why jobs are created, or how they are created, but who? it is the left's contention that "rich" people don't create jobs so the framing of job creating in the context of "who" is yours. so, who creates jobs? just asking.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by pete592 (December 21, 2011 2:39 pm ET)
          15  
          Paying customers create jobs.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 2:49 pm ET)
              17
            that is how, not who. you say rich people DON'T create jobs, so you are making it income specific, not me. so who creates jobs?
            Report Abuse
            • Author by danielsangeo (December 21, 2011 3:16 pm ET)
              14  
              Customers.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 3:20 pm ET)
                  15
                i didn't ask you and added nothing new.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by danielsangeo (December 21, 2011 3:25 pm ET)
                  12  
                  You asked a question and I answered it. It's not against the rules of this website.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 3:25 pm ET)
                      14
                    fine, amuse yourself.
                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by Boswell (December 21, 2011 3:37 pm ET)
                    8  
                    don't bother with that liar, just a FAUX-bot
                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by bilbo_dies (December 21, 2011 5:44 pm ET)
                    7  
                    Sorry daniel. James is still upset from having his arse handed to him yesterday.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 5:53 pm ET)
                        11
                      if being nearly the lone enlightened vessel in a sea of so many ultra leftist wackos means i get to hold my arse, then i gladly do it every day. :)
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by Deluded (December 21, 2011 6:14 pm ET)
                        7  
                        if being nearly the lone enlightened vessel in a sea of so many ultra leftist wackos means i get to hold my arse, then i gladly do it every day. :)


                        Pray tell me how you are enlightened?

                        Or is that simply what you see yourself as?
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 6:16 pm ET)
                            11
                          it means i don't question my positions when i am told by some people on this website they they hand my "arse" to me, or that i lose, or that they win. it does just the opposite. sorry.
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by Old_Benjamin (December 21, 2011 6:50 pm ET)
                            9  
                            it means i don't question my positions
                            LOL! We know. That's why you are a disingenuous a-hole who dismisses new info out of hand if it contradicts your preconceived notions.
                            Report Abuse
                          • Author by Deluded (December 21, 2011 7:41 pm ET)
                            8  
                            That's not being enlightened, it's hanging on to the belief that you are enlightened even though it doesn't necessarily mean that you are.

                            In other words it's being self assured to the point of ignorance.
                            Report Abuse
                          • Author by kabniel (December 21, 2011 9:45 pm ET)
                            3 1
                            james

                            Yes feel free to bolster your delusions and double down on your stupidity. I know you are incapable of anything else as brainwashed as you are. Sorry
                            Report Abuse
                      • Author by kabniel (December 21, 2011 9:44 pm ET)
                        3 1
                        james

                        Lone enlightened vessel? You are the stupidest of the stupid and among the most brainwashed creatures in history. Of all the delusional nonsense you have ever posted that one breaks the bank
                        Report Abuse
            • Author by peace4all (December 21, 2011 3:31 pm ET)
              8  
              who creates jobs? people that have a business that wants to expand. but as to wether the rich or the poor do, neither extreme is correct. most jobs are crated by people whose income would put them in the middle class.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 3:33 pm ET)
                  14
                fair enough. but i just don't understand why so many around here have to qualify it by saying "rich".
                Report Abuse
                • Author by danielsangeo (December 21, 2011 3:39 pm ET)
                  8  
                  That comes from right wingers on Fox and those like them that claim that letting the temporary tax cuts on the top 1% expire would hurt "job creators".

                  It is Fox and those like them that claim that the rich are the job creators.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 3:51 pm ET)
                      13
                    so the partisans on the right say the rich create jobs and the partisans on the left say the rich don't create jobs. where each simplistic statement is driven from that partisanship and honest truth lies in between. like nearly everything else.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by danielsangeo (December 21, 2011 3:54 pm ET)
                      12  
                      Partisans on the left? Not really. This is about reality versus fantasy.

                      Also, "honest truth lies in between" implies that neither side is telling the truth. That's not the case here. One side is telling falsehoods and the other is calling them on their falsehoods.

                      If person A suggests that we kill 50,000 people and person B suggests that we don't kill anyone, the "honest truth" is not a number between 0 and 50,000. The "honest truth" is 0.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 4:06 pm ET)
                          13
                        so no rich person has ever created a job?
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by danielsangeo (December 21, 2011 4:11 pm ET)
                          11  
                          Without the poor- and middle-class, there would be no rich person. So, any job "created" by a rich person, such as building a yacht or a private plane, would not be there without the poor- and middle-class.
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 4:26 pm ET)
                              10
                            and everything you say is a given. first off, congratulations on that. because everyone knows that rich people don't become rich alone, or without the marketplace buying what they're selling, which consists of consumers. rich, middle class and poor.
                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by danielsangeo (December 21, 2011 4:46 pm ET)
                              8  
                              Sorry. You just seem so out of touch with reality, I thought I would have to even tell you that.
                              Report Abuse
                            • Author by n'est-ce pas (December 21, 2011 4:55 pm ET)
                              7  
                              "Everyone knows?" Does everyone know that you explicitly endorse lying in the news?
                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 4:59 pm ET)
                                  10
                                thanks, i hope people read all the way down when you make a fool of yourself, again. :)
                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by n'est-ce pas (December 21, 2011 5:04 pm ET)
                                  5  
                                  We'll see, tommy. I suspect that thread doesn't say quite what you think it says. Your reading comprehension is pretty regularly called into question, you know.
                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 5:09 pm ET)
                                      10
                                    if you think i am the least bit concerned that you want to link to my posts in unrelated threads for some victory you can then claim, think again. you only give my posts more exposure, and i appreciate it.
                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by n'est-ce pas (December 21, 2011 5:12 pm ET)
                                      7  
                                      It's as if you don't have a history here, tommy. Shaming you with your own posts has driven you away before, and it'll drive you away again. You'll probably come back with a different sockpuppet handle that we'll have to identify, but jamesB is now labeled as a person who explicitly thinks it should not be illegal to lie in the news. On a site devoted to exposing misinformation in the media. IRONY.
                                      Report Abuse
                              • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 5:04 pm ET)
                                  10
                                you see, the difference between you and me is this. when rush limbaugh says obama is a gutless wonder, i shrug it off as more useless drivel from a moron. but you'd rather run kicking and screaming and whining to the govt to put someone out there to counter him and say that isn't true.
                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by n'est-ce pas (December 21, 2011 5:08 pm ET)
                                  6  
                                  And again, it's apparent you either don't even know what fight you're in, or you're playing the strawman game. But let's do allow others to read the thread wherein you try valiantly to attribute statements to me that clearly you made. Good luck.
                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 5:12 pm ET)
                                      10
                                    no strawman. you want rightwing radio and fox silenced, period. you can't say that outright because everyone will know what i already know, you're a nut. so you frame it in some abstract utopian fantasy about all you want is for the media to tell the truth and be held accountable. but when asked for specifics on implementation, you squeal away and dodge it. we both know why. you're very transparent. oh, and a phony because you are too cowardly to say what you really believe.
                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by Brabantio (December 21, 2011 10:46 pm ET)
                                      6  
                                      no strawman.
                                      Wait for it...
                                      you want rightwing radio and fox silenced, period.
                                      Strawman.
                                      Report Abuse
                                    • Author by Brabantio (December 21, 2011 10:46 pm ET)
                                      3  
                                      no strawman.
                                      Wait for it...
                                      you want rightwing radio and fox silenced, period.
                                      Strawman.
                                      Report Abuse
                                      • Author by jamesB (December 22, 2011 11:31 am ET)
                                          5
                                        because that is exactly what he wants, and many here. they know it, i know it, you know it. they just don't have the stones to say something so radical and ridiculous. but they would like nothing better for the govt to come in, either via some stupid fairness doctrine nonsense or the courts, and shut them down. no strawman, just a little liberal truth serum. liberals rarely expose what they really want, this is no different.
                                        Report Abuse
                                        • Author by Brabantio (December 22, 2011 11:54 am ET)
                                          3  
                                          because that is exactly what he wants, and many here. they know it, i know it, you know it.
                                          And yet, you have the gall to object when people say you only post here because you're paid to do so. If you want to claim that they can't say that because they have no evidence, you can't make claims without evidence either.

                                          A grown man shouldn't have a problem playing by the same rules he imposes on others. Tell me why you disagree.
                                          Report Abuse
                                          • Author by jamesB (December 22, 2011 12:14 pm ET)
                                              5
                                            because when i hear angry liberals talk about disbarring and court trials for media bias or putting out information that is not factual in the news, that radical nonsense speaks for itself. that is all the evidence required.
                                            Report Abuse
                                            • Author by Brabantio (December 22, 2011 12:23 pm ET)
                                              1 1
                                              You'll have to explain how disbarring lawyers is an attempt to silence all lawyers.

                                              For some strange reason, whenever people want right-wing liars to be held accountable for their actions, you feel the need to extrapolate that into some form of blanket censorship. You have no logical basis to make that leap.

                                              Try again?
                                              Report Abuse
                                              • Author by jamesB (December 22, 2011 12:32 pm ET)
                                                  4
                                                disbarring lawyers? what? this is not about lawyers. it is about disbarring journalists when they relay information that some govt appointed board says is not factual, read wha tn'est-ce pas said. or if that isn't ridiculous enough, deluded wants trials for media bias. so don't give me baloney about holding news media accountable. that sounds perfectly reasonable except when liberals are asked to say what that means, i get nothing but vague platitudes. which tells me they really don't want to say what they really mean. which is why shutting down those that you don't like is what they really mean. so you try again.
                                                Report Abuse
                                                • Author by Brabantio (December 22, 2011 12:38 pm ET)
                                                  2 1
                                                  This isn't that hard to understand. You're saying that accountability for specific acts is an attempt to silence all of right-wing media. That's where the "lawyer" part comes from.

                                                  I'm also not sure how disconnected you have to be to talk about specific measures, such as disbarment or trials, and then say that all you get are "vague platitudes" regarding accountability. If you want to challenge the specifics of ideas, fine, but the things you're talking about clearly apply to individual behavior, which does not qualify as silencing the whole of right-wing media by any stretch of the imagination.
                                                  Report Abuse
                                                  • Author by jamesB (December 22, 2011 12:48 pm ET)
                                                      4
                                                    then give me something workable that makes sense. i want to know how you intend to hold media accountable, specifically, for media bias or less than factual information. If you think disbarring journalists or putting them on trial for bias, then that is just plain nutty. don't blame me for concluding that silencing media you don't approve of is the ultimate goal when i don't get anything that makes sense. and they aren't specific measures, they're radical nonsense. if that's what you propose, then it's logical to assume what i did. sorry, you keep dancing.
                                                    Report Abuse
                                                    • Author by Brabantio (December 22, 2011 12:56 pm ET)
                                                      1 1
                                                      Your willingness to comprehend a concept doesn't have any bearing on whether something is "specific" or not, nor does your agreement with feasibility indicate anything about anyone else's motivation. You can say "nonsense" all day long, but you still can't assert a desire for censorship...any more than others can assert that you're a paid shill because of the "evidence" you provide on a daily basis.

                                                      Unless you're advocating a double standard, of course.
                                                      Report Abuse
                                                      • Author by jamesB (December 22, 2011 1:01 pm ET)
                                                          4
                                                        i figured you couldn't either. then don't waste my time telling me i am offering up strawman arguments. your evasiveness is just more evidence. someday liberals will just say what they mean, make like a lot easier.
                                                        Report Abuse
                                                        • Author by Brabantio (December 22, 2011 1:07 pm ET)
                                                          1 1
                                                          I'm not obligated to defend what anyone else says. All I have to do is point out that it's entirely possible to advocate something you don't agree with without having ulterior motivation.

                                                          It especially doesn't make any sense for you to demand that I take on someone else's argument when I said myself you can challenge the specifics of their ideas. Trying to move the goalposts to make me accountable for what someone else posted simply reeks of desperation.
                                                          Report Abuse
                                                          • Author by jamesB (December 22, 2011 1:58 pm ET)
                                                              4
                                                            fine, if you agree with that it's all nonsense and baloney, i'm glad.
                                                            Report Abuse
                                                            • Author by Brabantio (December 22, 2011 2:19 pm ET)
                                                              1 1
                                                              I didn't say that either, obviously.
                                                              Report Abuse
                                                              • Author by jamesB (December 22, 2011 2:37 pm ET)
                                                                  3
                                                                you're a proven liar. so all your comments will now be viewed in that context.
                                                                Report Abuse
                                                                • Author by Brabantio (December 22, 2011 2:59 pm ET)
                                                                    1
                                                                  I never claimed I had evidence on hand of you doing it. I said I've seen you do it, which is true. I'm not in the habit of making things up, and I'm not in a position where I would have to do so here anyway.

                                                                  If you had a leg to stand on, you wouldn't have to claim that I'm "lying" when I state the obvious fact that I didn't agree with you above. That doesn't even come close to making sense. If I was lying, you'd be able to demonstrate how I agreed with you.
                                                                  Report Abuse
                                                                • Author by highlyunlikely (December 22, 2011 5:27 pm ET)
                                                                  2  
                                                                  jimmy is actively using other people's lines. I call that running out of material.
                                                                  Report Abuse
                                                        • Author by highlyunlikely (December 22, 2011 5:27 pm ET)
                                                          2  
                                                          in which jimmy, the self-acknowledged a-hole, figures wrong.
                                                          Report Abuse
                                                      • Author by jamesB (December 22, 2011 1:06 pm ET)
                                                          3
                                                        oh, and on your insistence to divert and deflect the argument on to whether i am paid to post here or not is cute, ineffective, but cute. but all you need to know is when you or anyone offers up that tidbit of distraction, my reaction is meh, think what you want. far different from your reaction to my statement about a liberal desire for media shutdown is met with all sorts of guffaws and harrumphs and denials.

                                                        you figure it out which one hits home. :)
                                                        Report Abuse
                                                        • Author by Brabantio (December 22, 2011 1:11 pm ET)
                                                          1 1
                                                          That's just a lie. You've protested charges of being a paid poster any number of times, as well as of being "Tommy", which is especially justifiable given the standards you're applying to your own assumptions.

                                                          I'm not trying to divert anything. I'm pointing out, as always, that you are a shameless hypocrite.
                                                          Report Abuse
                                                          • Author by jamesB (December 22, 2011 1:59 pm ET)
                                                              3
                                                            i don't waste my time denying or even addressing it, it's a distraction done by posters who can't back up their arguments. i have protested nothing, so you are lying. if you can find a post of mine where i have protested it, find it. otherwise you the liar my friend.
                                                            Report Abuse
                                                            • Author by Brabantio (December 22, 2011 2:33 pm ET)
                                                                1
                                                              You used to say it was "creepy" when I found contradictions in your previous comments, but now you demand it? And since you're not supporting your point here, your assertion that you don't care is clearly a distraction done by a poster who can't back up his argument.

                                                              Besides, if you justify your assumptions based on your own empty assertions, you hardly have any room to demand proof of anything from anyone else.
                                                              Report Abuse
                                                              • Author by jamesB (December 22, 2011 2:35 pm ET)
                                                                  3
                                                                you are a liar. i have never protested any such thing and you know it. so you are free to lie without proof? got it, now i know your rules. you have the nerve to call me out on anything after your shameless lie. you should be proud.
                                                                Report Abuse
                                                                • Author by Brabantio (December 22, 2011 2:54 pm ET)
                                                                  1  
                                                                  To be fair, maybe it was "rightOn". But with as much as you post I have no way of tracking down times I've seen you protest the charges, under whatever name you used at the time.

                                                                  You don't have the credibility to judge me, in any event. This is the problem with your behavior that I warned you about years ago.
                                                                  Report Abuse
                                                                • Author by Brabantio (December 22, 2011 2:54 pm ET)
                                                                  1  
                                                                  To be fair, maybe it was "rightOn". But with as much as you post I have no way of tracking down times I've seen you protest the charges, under whatever name you used at the time.

                                                                  You don't have the credibility to judge me, in any event. This is the problem with your behavior that I warned you about years ago.
                                                                  Report Abuse
                                                                  • Author by jamesB (December 22, 2011 2:56 pm ET)
                                                                      3
                                                                    so now it was another poster? and because you think we are the same, that justifies your fabrication? your rules.
                                                                    Report Abuse
                                                                    • Author by Brabantio (December 22, 2011 3:00 pm ET)
                                                                      1  
                                                                      Are you protesting my assertion that you and rightOn are the same?
                                                                      Report Abuse
                                                                      • Author by jamesB (December 22, 2011 3:06 pm ET)
                                                                          3
                                                                        cute. you are slippery, but not very clever. if you want to lie, go for it.
                                                                        Report Abuse
                                                                        • Author by Brabantio (December 22, 2011 3:12 pm ET)
                                                                          1  
                                                                          To some degree I'm just giving you a taste of your own medicine. You sure don't take it very well, which is fun to watch.
                                                                          Report Abuse
                                                                          • Author by jamesB (December 22, 2011 3:21 pm ET)
                                                                              3
                                                                            lol! you come up with the wildest most bizarre excuses why you can't/won't backup your lying assertions. you have turned and twisted it every way imaginable. if you don't think that's fun to watch...
                                                                            Report Abuse
                                                                            • Author by Brabantio (December 22, 2011 3:30 pm ET)
                                                                              1  
                                                                              I'm just making it clear that I'm not lying. You can claim otherwise all you like, but your record of assertions on this thread alone is laughable.
                                                                              Report Abuse
                                                                              • Author by jamesB (December 22, 2011 3:32 pm ET)
                                                                                  3
                                                                                really? give me a minute...let me look up the word "LIE" in the dictionary and see if they offer up an example?....yep, they sure did, see below.
                                                                                You've protested charges of being a paid poster any number of times, as well as of being "Tommy",

                                                                                Report Abuse
                                                                                • Author by Brabantio (December 22, 2011 3:38 pm ET)
                                                                                  1  
                                                                                  I remember you doing it, therefore stating so is not intended for deception, therefore it's not a "lie".
                                                                                  Report Abuse
                                                                                  • Author by jamesB (December 22, 2011 3:49 pm ET)
                                                                                      3
                                                                                    weird. you remember me doing it even though i have never done it. whatever you need...
                                                                                    Report Abuse
                                                                                  • Author by jamesB (December 22, 2011 3:51 pm ET)
                                                                                      3
                                                                                    oh, and i remember you stating you wanted the right wing media shutdown, therefore stating so is not intended for deception, therefore it's not a "lie".
                                                                                    Report Abuse
                                                                                    • Author by Brabantio (December 22, 2011 3:55 pm ET)
                                                                                        1
                                                                                      Considering you've accused others on this thread of that sentiment with no evidence whatsoever, that carries very little weight.
                                                                                      Report Abuse
                                                                                      • Author by jamesB (December 22, 2011 4:13 pm ET)
                                                                                          3
                                                                                        well then you will just have to wallow in the immoral depths with me, won't you? :)
                                                                                        Report Abuse
                                                                                        • Author by highlyunlikely (December 22, 2011 5:25 pm ET)
                                                                                          2  
                                                                                          countdown to jimmy admitting he's often a a-hole on this thread, now that he's done so on another.
                                                                                          Report Abuse
                                                                            • Author by highlyunlikely (December 22, 2011 5:26 pm ET)
                                                                              2  
                                                                              remember, jimmy using "lol" signals he's a lot more frustrated than amused.
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                                    • Author by kabniel (December 22, 2011 1:19 am ET)
                                      1 1
                                      james

                                      no strawman. you want rightwing radio and fox silenced, period


                                      You are a LIAR. Period

                                      What everyone knows is you are a LIAR. It is that simple

                                      We both know why, because you are a pathalogical liar and care nothing about the truth. And you are a punk
                                      Report Abuse
                                    • Author by highlyunlikely (December 22, 2011 5:29 pm ET)
                                      2  
                                      in which jimmy, substituting his reasoning system for ours, comes to a spectacularly wrong conclusion. It's what self-admitted a-holes do.
                                      Report Abuse
                                  • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 5:17 pm ET)
                                      10
                                    oh, and you have the nerve to accuse me of a strawman, when just because i do not advocate govt interference in monitoring truthfulness on cable tv that means i "explicity endorse lying in the news". you are a mess.
                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by n'est-ce pas (December 21, 2011 5:19 pm ET)
                                      7  
                                      I asked you if it should be illegal for the news to lie. You said no. You lose.
                                      Report Abuse
                                      • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 5:21 pm ET)
                                          9
                                        so when rush speaks for three hours a day and tells one stupid lie after another, that should be illegal?
                                        Report Abuse
                                        • Author by n'est-ce pas (December 21, 2011 5:54 pm ET)
                                          4  
                                          As was already addressed, Rush Limbaugh is not the news. News, tommy. Not opinion programming, news. You are incredibly stupid.
                                          Report Abuse
                                          • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 5:57 pm ET)
                                              7
                                            so give me an example from fox today, how about this? how would you have govt come in and correct this?
                                            Report Abuse
                                            • Author by n'est-ce pas (December 21, 2011 6:05 pm ET)
                                              5  
                                              I would like to see the government do as they have done in the past and require that anything labeled "news" be editorially unbiased. Reporting on Politifact's "Lie of the Year" is totally in bounds for a news organization. Interjecting editorial bias, such as an obvious pro-Republican glee that for once it's not a wingnut getting the pants-on-fire, is obviously over that line. If you had attended college, you might have taken a Journalism 101 course. In that course, you would have learned the hallmarks of editorial objectivity that is the standard for professionalism in the news business. But since you never did go to college, you're left flailing away, wondering how the world isn't as small and closed off for everybody else as it is for you.

                                              So, how would I handle your example? I would probably have a professional board in place, as we have for doctors, lawyers, architects, etc., who would have the power to "disbar" journalists who do not meet a certain level of professional ethics. If board certified journalists wanted to maintain their professional standing, they would refuse to play Roger Ailes' game of hide the sausage with the American public.

                                              See, it's not government interference, no more than it is when the State Bar Association takes away a lawyer's license to practice for misconduct or malpractice. But since your profession seems to be Internet discussion board trolling, you probably don't understand professional standards. Sad.
                                              Report Abuse
                                              • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 6:07 pm ET)
                                                  6
                                                so this woman on fox, the one i linked to would be disbarred?
                                                Report Abuse
                                                • Author by n'est-ce pas (December 21, 2011 9:15 pm ET)
                                                  2  
                                                  For one infraction? I wouldn't imagine that a lawyer would be disbarred for one small ethical breach. I suspect a pattern would have to be demonstrated, as it would be in any other profession governed by a certifying board. Though I'll admit it would probably be far easier to demonstrate a pattern of ethical breaches on Fox News than any other media outlet in the world.
                                                  Report Abuse
                                              • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 6:12 pm ET)
                                                  7
                                                and media bias? how would your professional board handle that? i mean what if it's not an outright verifiable lie, but biased due to an omission or a ideological slant a certain way? would your board address these instances?
                                                Report Abuse
                                                • Author by Deluded (December 21, 2011 6:25 pm ET)
                                                  3  
                                                  and media bias? how would your professional board handle that? i mean what if it's not an outright verifiable lie, but biased due to an omission or a ideological slant a certain way? would your board address these instances?


                                                  An omission should be treated in a similar manner if intent is shown behind it. Regardless of whether intent is present or not, it should be ensured that omissions should be corrected as soon as possible as they may result in news becoming misleading (which is the whole point of such a board in the first place).

                                                  Ideological slants should be avoided in news as far as possible, and if opinions are present displaying such, they should be indicated as as such.

                                                  You know from your post it seems that your worries stem from a board not being able to deal with all the little nuances that can occur. However such a board exists in American society that deal with little nuances all the time in an issue called trials. In trials where a jury is present, they are the board responsible for handling such nuances, and the judge there is also handling such nuances with his ruling and overseeing of the process. Complicated? Yes. Infallible? No.

                                                  However if you'd worry so much about nuances that may result in the issue of ruling on media correctness, to the point of saying it should not be altogether....why not say the same for rulings on all other criminal and civil cases?
                                                  Report Abuse
                                                  • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 6:45 pm ET)
                                                      7
                                                    so you want a board review and maybe a trial for instances of media bias?
                                                    Report Abuse
                                                    • Author by highlyunlikely (December 21, 2011 6:52 pm ET)
                                                      5  
                                                      this may be today's last comment from jim, who never did allow his alleged interest in a topic delay him from a hasty retreat at quitting time.
                                                      Report Abuse
                                                    • Author by Deluded (December 21, 2011 6:55 pm ET)
                                                      4  
                                                      What's wrong with a case against misinformation in the media?

                                                      After all companies have to be careful about how they label products and can be sued if they misinform on their product (through errors or omissions, blatant or otherwise).

                                                      The media, news media especially, is in the position of greater responsibility as it is their place to disseminate information to the masses. So yeah why CAN'T they be held accountable judicially?
                                                      Report Abuse
                                                      • Author by JamesBond (December 22, 2011 11:45 am ET)
                                                          4
                                                        I generally don't like to post in threads in which jamesB has posted, primarily because my unfortunate choice of screen name brings out the Mother Hen and her ilk with their "noun, verb, and rightON/tommy/jamesB" nonsense. However, reading through these comments on having board reviews and trials and whatnot for the news media, I have to comment.

                                                        Deluded asks "why CAN'T [the news media] be held accountable judicially?"

                                                        The obvious answer is: the First Amendment to the Constitution specifically prohibits such an action. "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press".

                                                        Conservative/liberal, Republican/Democrat, or otherwise, it ought to send a chill down every American's spine to hear people seriously suggest that the government police what the media can or cannot say.

                                                        The way to combat misinformation in the media is through more information and watch dog groups, such as Media Matters. It is not through the creation of a government entity to police the speech of news organizations.

                                                        Regardless of how one feels about Fox News (and it's very clear how the vast majority of people on this site feel), and regardless of the unconstitutionality of such a proposal, do you not find it the least bit disturbing to advocate for government speech controls on the primary mechanism the citizenry have for holding government accountable??

                                                        I get that there is a lot of hatred for Fox News, but think about what you are truly advocating.
                                                        Report Abuse
                                                        • Author by Brabantio (December 22, 2011 12:42 pm ET)
                                                          1  
                                                          The obvious answer is: the First Amendment to the Constitution specifically prohibits such an action. "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press".
                                                          So how is it that people can be sued for libel?
                                                          Report Abuse
                                                          • Author by JamesBond (December 22, 2011 5:42 pm ET)
                                                              3
                                                            The First Amendment puts restrictions on the government, not on the people. People can sue one another for libel, but the government cannot sue a person for libel.
                                                            Report Abuse
                                                            • Author by Deluded (December 22, 2011 6:21 pm ET)
                                                              1  
                                                              A news corporation is a person?

                                                              Oh wait, didn't Romney say something along those lines....?
                                                              Report Abuse
                                                              • Author by JamesBond (December 23, 2011 12:36 am ET)
                                                                  1
                                                                The government cannot sue a news organization for libel either.

                                                                If a news organization libels a person, they can be sued by that person. The government is prohibited from suing a news organization for libel by the First Amendment.

                                                                It should also be noted that the Supreme Court has held that the right to free speech and a free press outweighs the rights of government officials in that government officials must meet a higher standard of proof for a libel case than that of ordinary citizens. I mention that to further illustrate how serious the freedom of the press is taken by the courts.

                                                                For you to suggest that the government should hold the press accountable for what they say is chilling. It smacks of Soviet-style censorship. I know you hate Fox News and all, but seriously consider what you have advocated. You want the government to be able to prosecute the media. It is the media which provides the primary mechanism by which the government is held accountable to its citizens. That is the very reason why the freedom of the press was established via the First Amendment.
                                                                Report Abuse
                                                            • Author by Brabantio (December 22, 2011 7:01 pm ET)
                                                              1  
                                                              But things that cause harm are not necessarily protected, the same way that shouting "fire" in a crowded theater is not "free speech". The government has made laws that allow me to sue a media outlet that causes me financial harm through dishonest reporting. How is that not the government allowing freedom of the press to be compromised?

                                                              I understand there may be a difference as to how the laws are established, but as long as we're talking about factual matters that can be determined through the judicial process, what's the difference between a citizen filing a suit and the government doing so?
                                                              Report Abuse
                                                              • Author by JamesBond (December 23, 2011 12:59 am ET)
                                                                  1
                                                                Shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre doesn't have anything to do with freedom of the press.

                                                                YOU can sue a media outlet for libel, but the government cannot. That is the difference. As I stated above, the First Amendment puts restrictions on the government, not on the people.

                                                                It's the same way as Hank Williams Jr. having a right to free speech, but ESPN removed his Monday Night Football intro because of what he said. ESPN has the right to limit Hank William Jr's speech on their network, but the government does not. The government cannot sue or prosecute Hank Williams for his speech because the First Amendment prohibits it from doing so. And so it is with a news organization. Individuals (or other organizations) can sue a news organization, but the government cannot.

                                                                Also, as I mentioned in a reply to someone else above, even government officials are somewhat limited in their ability to sue for libel because the Supreme Court has held that the right to a free press outweighs the rights of government officials and so they must meet a higher burden of proof in a libel case than do ordinary citizens. (1964, The New York Times v. Sullivan)

                                                                I truly find it incredulous that you, or anyone else, would serious suggest that there needs to be a government entity that policies the news media. Think about where that will lead. There will come a day when people you don't agree with are in charge of the government. Do you seriously want them to have the power to essentially censor the media??
                                                                Report Abuse
                                                                • Author by Brabantio (December 23, 2011 6:48 am ET)
                                                                     
                                                                  Someone who shouts "fire" in a crowded theater can be prosecuted by the government. It's amazing that you make a comparison to freedom of speech but somehow don't grasp the clear nature of my comment on the same subject.

                                                                  What I'm trying to figure out is how discouraging lies is "censorship". Why should anyone have a right to deceive the public? I specified a judicial process anyway, so I'm not sure how the people "in charge" have quite as much power as you imply, and certainly not directly.

                                                                  The point is that rights are not absolute, and it's hard to imagine that they were intended to be so.
                                                                  Report Abuse
                                                                  • Author by JamesBond (December 23, 2011 10:46 am ET)
                                                                       
                                                                    The comparison with free speech was to show how the people are not prohibited by the First Amendment, the government is. The Hank Williams Jr. incident was just a recent example that popped into my head to illustrate that point.

                                                                    Discouraging lies is not censorship in and of itself, but it will inevitably lead to censorship -- either outright censorship or it will have such a chilling effect on the media so as to be indistinguishable from censorship.

                                                                    Specifying that it would be a judicial process doesn't really change the potential political nature of it. The reason is that it would be the Justice Department which would have to bring the charges of lying against a media outlet. Is there really any doubt that a given administration's Justice Department would be less than enthusiastic in pursuing charges against a friendly media outlet and more enthusiastic about bringing charges against an unfriendly one? Sure, even if it brings charges, the Justice Department would have to prove those charges in court, but I think just the very real threat of having to defend themselves in court would have a chilling effect on the media.

                                                                    Your point about rights not being absolute is well taken. However, I believe the freedom of the press is one which should be absolute, as the press is the primary mechanism by which the citizenry can hold the government accountable. A press which is afraid to report on the government because of fear of prosecution is a press which is effectively controlled by the government. As I said before, liberal/conservative, Republican/Democrat, or otherwise, it ought to send a chill down your spine to give the government that kind of power over the press.
                                                                    Report Abuse
                                                                    • Author by Brabantio (December 23, 2011 11:41 am ET)
                                                                         
                                                                      I'm trying to imagine FOX saying something true about Obama and getting prosecuted for it. FOX has a voice, unlike many others who have to worry about injustice, and they would surely make it very clear that what they said was true. I don't think anyone's dumb enough to give FOX credibility and victim status like that.

                                                                      That being said, I agree about the imbalance from one administration to another as to what is prosecuted and what isn't. There would still some bipartisan benefit, though, keeping people honest regarding the administration of the time. Ultimately I just have a hard time imagining that the same people who came up with the electoral college would look at the current situation and say that it's fine for people with money to throw as much garbage into the public dialogue as they want in order to gain political power. Surely some measure for balance would be recommended.
                                                                      Report Abuse
                        • Author by danielsangeo (December 21, 2011 4:11 pm ET)
                          5  
                          So, to simplify: No. No rich person has ever created a job. The jobs are there because of the actions of the poor- and middle-class.
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 4:24 pm ET)
                              9
                            as usual you'd rather play semantic word games, as you always do to mask a weak argument, instead of answering the question. you are answering how a job is created.
                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by danielsangeo (December 21, 2011 4:44 pm ET)
                              6  
                              I'm sorry. I'm not sure what you want as an answer to the question. You asked who were the job creators and that question has been answered several times now.
                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 4:46 pm ET)
                                  10
                                don't apologize. never mind.
                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by danielsangeo (December 21, 2011 4:47 pm ET)
                                  6 1
                                  Why don't you just answer this question:

                                  What do you want as an answer to your question?
                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 4:56 pm ET)
                                      9
                                    i guess you answered it. you said no rich person has ever created a job. if you stand by that statement, well, i guess you stand by that statement.
                                    Report Abuse
                            • Author by highlyunlikely (December 21, 2011 6:53 pm ET)
                              2  
                              projection is also known as signalling. jimmy, when caught, doesn't have much choice but to accuse the other guy of what he excels at.
                              Report Abuse
                        • Author by Old_Benjamin (December 21, 2011 4:13 pm ET)
                          6  
                          jimbob-
                          so no rich person has ever created a job?
                          After he posted -
                          except liberals who like to put those words in people's mouths who have never said it.

                          Flail troll flail.
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 4:22 pm ET)
                              8
                            hey loser -
                            by danielsangeo (10 minutes ago)

                            So, to simplify: No. No rich person has ever created a job
                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by Old_Benjamin (December 21, 2011 4:30 pm ET)
                              6  
                              Flail troll flail.
                              by danielsangeo (10 minutes ago)

                              So, to simplify: No. No rich person has ever created a job


                              YOUR post was five minutes before dan replied. So yes - you put words in his mouth. Now STFU before you embarass yourself like this again
                              ...fair enough. but i just don't understand why so many around here have to qualify it by saying "rich".
                              Long way to quittin time at the troll factory.
                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 4:33 pm ET)
                                  10
                                so i put words in his mouth and he spit it out verbatim. again, you look pitiful.
                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by Old_Benjamin (December 21, 2011 4:35 pm ET)
                                  5  
                                  Says teh a-hole who posts this...
                                  fair enough. but i just don't understand why so many around here have to qualify it by saying "rich".
                                  Nice work idiot.
                                  Report Abuse
                    • Author by The_Cat (December 21, 2011 8:21 pm ET)
                      1  
                      so the partisans on the right say the rich create jobs...

                      Close but no cigar, jamesB. What the partisans on the right actually say is that only the rich create jobs. Only the top 1% is somehow is capable of making a job or jobs.

                      What the partisans are the left are doing is calling 'bullspit' on that argument, because most jobs are created by small business first when the economy begins to improve.

                      Small business is really the heart of this nation, but stopping at all the small businesses became a real pain in the neck sometime during the 1960s to 1970s but for sure by Reagan's election in 1980 for the Republicans. They decided it would be much easier just to ask a couple of multinational conglomerates to pay their campaign costs, and so they became the champions of the mega corporation, corporatocracy, and the uber-wealthy.
                      Report Abuse
              • Author by TheRoseLensPuzzle (December 23, 2011 2:59 pm ET)
                   
                Who creates jobs - business owners, in conjunction with the consumers of the goods and/or services that the business produces. Company is made, company produces items/services, they are consumed, demand increases, and thus it becomes necessary that jobs are created. Without consumers no jobs exist though. Generally speaking, a business creating jobs will be owned by someone who is successfully running the company - thus, they are likely pulling in some cash. Building a business takes risk, and I think the more money you have the more risks you can afford to take. The problem the left has with the contention that the rich make jobs is the fact that "rich" people can easily be characterized as "greedy" - not always wrong either. Tax cuts for the wealthy could equal more jobs, or it could equal the money just staying in pockets. People like their money.
                Report Abuse
              • Author by notsure5 (December 23, 2011 4:52 pm ET)
                   
                who creates jobs? people that have a business that wants to expand.

                Don't forget the reason they want to expand - because there is demand for it. It is not the business owners at all who create the jobs, they simply are fulfilling a demand in order to turn a profit. It is the demand that ultimately creates the jobs, the business simply facilitates it.
                Report Abuse
            • Author by pete592 (December 21, 2011 4:02 pm ET)
              5  
              I just told you who: customers, specifically, paying ones. That's who.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 4:05 pm ET)
                  10
                then why single out rich people as those who don't create jobs? you mean a rich person has never created a job?
                Report Abuse
                • Author by pete592 (December 21, 2011 4:29 pm ET)
                  7  
                  I may have said as much in the past, but if we're going to get all semanticky and parsey, I don't single the rich out as "those who don't create jobs." I single the rich out as people who don't hire workers as a result of a tax cut.
                  Report Abuse
            • Author by kabniel (December 21, 2011 9:43 pm ET)
              2 1
              james

              Actually no one said that you are a LIAR and your strawman stupidity is tiresome and boring
              Report Abuse
        • Author by danielsangeo (December 21, 2011 2:40 pm ET)
          8  
          What makes you think that "poor" people don't create jobs?

          The job creators are the consumers who spend the large part of their income on necessities and wants instead of saving the money.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by David2012 (December 21, 2011 2:44 pm ET)
          6  
          Jobs are created when people see an opportunity to make money by supplying a good or service to people who are demanding that good or service. Those jobs may require capital, they may not. Most capital in the United States is institutional, generally pension funds, insurance companies, banks, and other financial institutions. High income individuals aren't really major "job creators", and most small businesses, which is where most jobs are created, are not owned and operated by high income individuals.

          The arguments to the contrary being made, jamesb, are self-evident (okay, virtually self-evident) BS. They are all about the preservation of privilege and the continued exacerbation of the inequality that we as a society have allowed to develop over the last 30 years, to the detriment of our society and our political discourse.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by danielsangeo (December 21, 2011 3:12 pm ET)
            6  
            Those "high income individuals" also owe their money to the poor- and middle-class because, without these two huge consumer bases, they wouldn't be "high income individuals".
            Report Abuse
            • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 3:14 pm ET)
                13
              and i know of no one who has said otherwise, except liberals who like to put those words in people's mouths who have never said it.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by danielsangeo (December 21, 2011 3:15 pm ET)
                6  
                I didn't say anyone said otherwise.
                Report Abuse
              • Author by Old_Benjamin (December 21, 2011 3:29 pm ET)
                6  
                jimbob-
                i didn't ask you and added nothing new

                Followed by this to someone that did not ask jimbob anything...
                and i know of no one who has said otherwise, except liberals who like to put those words in people's mouths who have never said it.

                Take your own advice a-hole. Oh...and STFU.
                Report Abuse
        • Author by nerzog (December 21, 2011 2:44 pm ET)
          7  
          Like pete said, people who buy products and services create jobs.

          Most people who get rich in business do so buy selling something... either their talent, time or a product they make. Who buys these things?

          Now, there are exceptions; rich people who get rich without producing anything of value... like Rush Limbaugh and the paid liars on FOX "News", but they're market anomalies, and would never survive if they depended solely on market forces.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by danielsangeo (December 21, 2011 3:46 pm ET)
            7  
            Actually, I can affirm with 100% conviction, that every single top 1%er on this planet got to be that way because of the labor of those that are at the bottom 99%.

            Really, the top 1% should be thanking the rest of us instead of engaging in class warfare against those that made them wealthy.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by notsure5 (December 23, 2011 4:58 pm ET)
                 
              And they should be willing to pay a much larger portion of their incom in taxes because they get much more beenfit from what the government provides.
              Report Abuse
          • Author by chazmanr (December 21, 2011 4:15 pm ET)
            3  
            Now, there are exceptions; rich people who get rich without producing anything of value... like Rush Limbaugh and the paid liars on FOX "News",


            And of course there are those who made their money the old fashioned way; they inherited it. How many of the Fortune 500 wealthiest actually earned their wealth? The Walton's alone account for 6. The Pritzker's are another half dozen who didn't do a darn thing to earn their wealth. These individuals get all or most of their income as capital gains.
            Report Abuse
        • Author by The_Cat (December 21, 2011 3:50 pm ET)
          7  
          "poor" people most certainly don't create jobs.

          While actual poor people may not create jobs, the job I currently have was created by someone with a middle class income level. He mortgaged his house, and scrimped and borrowed every penny he could to buy a CNC machine. I run it for him. He is certainly NOT wealthy, and yet he created a job. Two jobs, actually, because he still runs the place.

          He saw a market. He invested all he had, which wasn't a lot, really, and here we are. We're about to add a third person, at least part time, to help me out. I think this is going to be a great year for the business.

          Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by Unreality (December 21, 2011 11:19 pm ET)
               
            Best wishes for a great new year. Many of the local CNC shops on the west coast have been cut off at the knees with Chinese competition. Our company does very, very specialized instrumentation and we refuse to go off-shore. We're too small to set up our own machine shop, but we still do some fabrication mostly wiring, assemble, calibrate and do extensive fail-safe testing.
            Report Abuse
        • Author by shaggles (December 21, 2011 4:59 pm ET)
          4 1
          I didn't say that rich people don't create jobs. I said it's a fallacy to believe that only rich people create jobs.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by politeradical (December 21, 2011 5:21 pm ET)
          6  
          You're right james.

          No poor person ever borrowed money to start their own business and worked it into a success.

          No one ever made money or hired anyone providing low income housing to poor people.

          The "rich as job creators" argument falls to pieces because it claims that giving the rich everything they want will lead to job creation. It hasn't and it doesn't.

          People buying goods and services drives job creation, always has, always will.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 5:27 pm ET)
              8
            No poor person ever borrowed money to start their own business and worked it into a success.

            whoa. the left is always telling me that is a myth. glad you agree with me that it is not.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by danielsangeo (December 21, 2011 5:42 pm ET)
              2  
              Wait, WHAT?!
              Report Abuse
            • Author by Old_Benjamin (December 21, 2011 5:44 pm ET)
              4  
              the left is always telling me that is a myth.

              Down to outright lies is it?
              Report Abuse
              • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 5:48 pm ET)
                  8
                oh please, ask many liberals around here who think most rich people either inherited it or stole it. when i talk about poor people working their a$$ off and become rich, it gets shot down as a myth. ask n'est-ce pas.
                but please, please, tell me liberals don't say that and that you agree that a poor person can become rich. tell me that, please.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by Old_Benjamin (December 21, 2011 6:20 pm ET)
                  5  
                  ask many liberals around here who think most rich people either inherited it or stole it.
                  Of course you can link to such a statement? Anyway, I think that a lot (most? I don't know) of wealthy people inherited it.
                  when i talk about poor people working their a$$ off and become rich, it gets shot down as a myth.
                  Link? Of course you are just lying again. It's what you do. I've seen where posters here will point out that it's becoming less likely to move up in SES in the US while that economic mobility is increasing elsewhere.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 6:25 pm ET)
                      7
                    so you are one who believes that poor people can become rich? that is either a yes or a no.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by Old_Benjamin (December 21, 2011 6:29 pm ET)
                      2  
                      So you don't have links to prove what you are told? Thought so. Lying POS.
                      Report Abuse
                    • Author by Deluded (December 21, 2011 6:39 pm ET)
                      6  
                      Oh yes, I believe anyone can get rich by working hard (the possibility is there), but I also believe that that possibility is small enough that many who work hard, WON'T get "rich" (rich as in where the rich are today).

                      when i talk about poor people working their a$$ off and become rich, it gets shot down as a myth.


                      If you are talking in terms of absolutes AGAIN, let me say this: You're not doing yourself and anyone else a favour by defining terms in the form of absolutes simply because it helps you "win" by pointing out that such absolutes cannot exist. Above in the thread, the absolute you tried to put forward was that it is absurd that NO rich person EVER created a job. What everyone was talking about however was that in general, the demographic known as the rich has not been known to create the jobs as TOUTED by Reaganomics. No one is trying to debate absolutes here but you, shifting the issue to this absolute ensures that no common round is reached because that absolute is not something that is being disputed.

                      In this instance, your absolute is that NO poor person who works hard can EVER get rich. That of course isn't true, there are examples of poor people working hard and getting rich. However the notion being disputed here is that in GENERAL the poor people who work hard WILL get rich.

                      This concept is being expoused by FOX and the right to decry social welfare programs by stating that the poor don't need help, they just need to help themselves by working hard. That of course is manifestly untrue, for someone below the poverty line, even getting above it is really hard, let alone becoming rich. And that is with EFFORT, these poor people often work several jobs just to get by, the MYTH perpetrated by FOX and the right that they are poor because they are lazy is false as a generic description.

                      Poor people, those that work hard, in general are unlikely to become rich. Some might make it, but most would still remain trapped below the poverty line. This is what's being disputed, not your absolute of "no poor person has ever become rich through hard work".
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 6:43 pm ET)
                          8
                        well at least you're honest enough to admit it, something old ben is not.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by highlyunlikely (December 21, 2011 6:56 pm ET)
                          5  
                          "at least" is a desperation ploy. Count your blessings, Todd, "at least" you have a spine.
                          Report Abuse
                        • Author by Old_Benjamin (December 21, 2011 6:56 pm ET)
                          2  
                          Hey dipsh!t, just because you can't understand waht you read, don't blame others.
                          I already stated...
                          it's becoming less likely to move up in SES in the US while that economic mobility is increasing elsewhere
                          Now pound salt a-hole.
                          Report Abuse
                        • Author by Deluded (December 21, 2011 6:57 pm ET)
                          2  
                          It seems you've either not read much of my post or chosen to ignore it.
                          Report Abuse
                    • Author by jonimacaroni1 (December 21, 2011 8:21 pm ET)
                      4 1
                      Extremely rare people can gain incredible upward mobility. Most can't, and so the disingenuous rightwing a-holes who claim that it's possible for any poor person to greatly improve their position in life are the dishonest ones. Once again, we see the word-parsing "right ON/tommy/jamesB" dishonestly depicting the comments of others.
                      Report Abuse
                • Author by The_Cat (December 21, 2011 8:29 pm ET)
                  3  
                  but please, please, tell me liberals don't say that and that you agree that a poor person can become rich. tell me that, please.

                  I'd LIKE to say that I believe a poor person can become rich, jamesB, but the truth is, it's easier to move from poverty to the upper class in most of Europe than it is in America right now. I don't think it's become impossible, but I do know it has become far less likely. Mostly thanks to piling up all the wealth of the nation in the hands of a tiny handful of people.
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by kabniel (December 21, 2011 9:51 pm ET)
                  3 1
                  james

                  You are a LIAR. It is just that simple. You lie constantly. You are a pathalogical liar. You are also a liar both THIS

                  .
                  "poor" people most certainly don't create jobs


                  And this

                  No poor person ever borrowed money to start their own business and worked it into a success.

                  whoa. the left is always telling me that is a myth. glad you agree with me that it is not.


                  Those two statements are contradictary. Both cannot be true. So again you are a LIAR
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by politeradical (December 21, 2011 11:50 pm ET)
                  3  
                  A vast majority of business owners live middle class existences and their status as job creators cuts against the right's preposterous notion that only the rich create jobs and therefore must be coddled and given every advantage.
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by notsure5 (December 23, 2011 5:07 pm ET)
                     
                  when i talk about poor people working their a$$ off and become rich, it gets shot down as a myth

                  Moving the goal posts much? First it's that it became a successful business, now it's becoming rich?

                  And I do believe what they are actually saying is that it is not commonplace for someone to start from zero and become incredibly wealthy. That is the myth. It is, however, fairly commonplace to start from little and become successful.
                  Report Abuse
        • Author by kabniel (December 21, 2011 9:41 pm ET)
          1 1
          james

          You are such a dishonest punk. Shaggles didnt say rich people dont create jobs. She said it was falacious to say ONLY rich people create jobs. Look we all know you are a brainwashed Randininsta and we all know what you have been brainwashed to spew out these ignorant talking points no matter what reality is. Personally I am tired of answering the same stupid and inane questions from you EVERY TIME the same topic comes up. Since you are just too STUPID to understand the concepts why dont you do us all a favor and STFU?
          Report Abuse
    • Author by David2012 (December 21, 2011 2:38 pm ET)
      4  
      The earned income tax credit, the "negative income tax", was an idea of Milton Friedman's, actually. Varney is just advocating on behalf of the people who write his paychecks.

      I.e., the man is a shameless whore, to put it in plain English.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by chazmanr (December 21, 2011 3:48 pm ET)
      3  
      When you tax at 70 percent -- if you go back to the Carter years, and so that people who are supposedly wealthy lose 70 cents on every dollar they make above a certain level -- you do that and, you actually take in less money in total taxes than if you have the rate all the way down at 35 percent, where it is now.


      I am sure that Varney chose that particular president and that tax rate as an example purely at random. I mean, he wouldn't intentionally ignore the 90%+ tax rate that we had under Eisenhower (an "R"), would he? The troglodytes might actually realize that the "Leave it to Beaver" years that they miss so much may not have been as rosy as they recall.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by danielsangeo (December 21, 2011 5:01 pm ET)
        3  
        You know, I wish I could make so much money that I would "lose 70 cents on every dollar I make above a certain level"....

        At $1,000,000,000, that would mean that I would STILL get over $300M. I'm not going to cry over that. And I certainly would be grateful for the opportunity to be so wealthy that I would want to help those that made me wealthy...because that would make me even MORE wealthy. But, before the "well, you can send more money to government if you want" people pipe up, I would demand that others do the same as I because they're in the position they're in for the same reason I'm in the position I'm in....because of the help from those that made me wealthy.

        Bill Gates is one of the richest people on this planet today. He had an idea, sure, and he's super smart, I grant you. However, without others, he would just be a smart man with an idea. His bank account would look no different from mine.

        Also, before anyone claims otherwise, at 70% (or 90%+), you aren't 'losing' 70%/90%+ of your entire income in taxes...it's a sliding scale.

        Letting the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy expire would barely move their individual wealth but it would do wonders for the economy.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 5:19 pm ET)
            8
          what about hard work? where does that fit into the equation of becoming rich? or doesn't it?
          Report Abuse
          • Author by danielsangeo (December 21, 2011 5:20 pm ET)
            3  
            Hard work is just one part of the equation. It's like an engine. Engines work hard...but they cannot work without fuel.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 5:22 pm ET)
                8
              well, you just left it out completely so i was wondering.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by danielsangeo (December 21, 2011 5:33 pm ET)
                3  
                I left it out because I was scolded by you earlier for saying things that should've been common sense.
                Report Abuse
        • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 5:26 pm ET)
            7
          and just to address your statement
          You know, I wish I could make so much money that I would "lose 70 cents on every dollar I make above a certain level"....

          At $1,000,000,000, that would mean that I would STILL get over $300M. I'm not going to cry over that.

          what is your incentive to earn a million next year then? i mean if the govt takes 70% of it, why bother earning that much? you could cut it in half, close down a plant or two, shed some of those people who work for you because you won't need them to help you make a million anymore. what about that? why would you be stupid enough to work hard for a million bucks when you can take twice as much time off and downsize half and make 500k and still net not that much less?
          Report Abuse
          • Author by danielsangeo (December 21, 2011 5:37 pm ET)
            2  
            Your incentive to earn a million next year is that you get extra money. Money your business gets is not your personal income, it's your business' income. Your business pays you. When you reinvest in your business by spending your business income, your business' taxes are lower. But your business' income is not what we're talking about here.

            Is it stupid to earn more money by working harder?
            Report Abuse
            • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 5:41 pm ET)
                7
              point is if the govt takes 70% of what you make then what incentive do you have to be in such a high income bracket? if you were smart you'd downsize and work less for proportionately the same income, or very close.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by danielsangeo (December 21, 2011 5:42 pm ET)
                3  
                So, you are saying that it's stupid to earn more money by working harder. Got it.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 5:44 pm ET)
                    6
                  i knew you wouldn't answer the question because it destroys your stupid statement above. more unintended consequences of liberal nonsense of income confiscation at some immoral level of 70%.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by danielsangeo (December 21, 2011 5:48 pm ET)
                    1  
                    I did answer your question.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 5:49 pm ET)
                        7
                      you only answer questions with a question. that's how you dodge them. yet you always end up looking foolish.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by danielsangeo (December 21, 2011 5:51 pm ET)
                        1  
                        Your incentive is to make more money. I thought I was clear in the answer.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 5:55 pm ET)
                            6
                          make more money so 70% of it can be taken away? what planet are you on? how much will you tax me if i make 500k? how much for 300k? how much for 100k?
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by danielsangeo (December 21, 2011 6:18 pm ET)
                            4  
                            Yes. More money.

                            For tax year 2011:
                            From 0-8,500 = 10%
                            From 8,500-34,500 = 15%
                            From 34,500-83,600 = 25%
                            From 83,600-174,400 = 28%
                            From 174,400-379,150 = 33%
                            From 379,150 and above = 35%

                            If you make 100k precisely:
                            8500*0.1 = $850
                            (34,500-8,500)*0.15 = $3,900
                            (83,600-34,500)*0.25 = $12,275
                            (100,000-83,600)*0.28 = $4,592

                            Total tax bill for 100k = $20,767 or about 20.77%, leaving you $79,233

                            Now, if you were to make 150k, your total tax would be $34,767 leaving you $115,233.

                            Now, if you were to go above the $174,400 level, let's see what happens and you make $174,500. Hundred bucks more.

                            8500*0.1 = $850
                            (34,500-8,500)*0.15 = $3,900
                            (83,600-34,500)*0.25 = $12,275
                            (174,400-83,600)*0.28 = $4,592
                            (174,500-174,400)*0.33 = $33

                            So, making hundred bucks more will increase your tax 'burden' by $33, netting you an extra $77.

                            So, tell me again how making more money is not an incentive to work harder?
                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by danielsangeo (December 21, 2011 6:21 pm ET)
                              5  
                              Woops. Messed up the figures for $174,500. Here's the corrected figures:

                              8500*0.1 = $850
                              (34,500-8,500)*0.15 = $3,900
                              (83,600-34,500)*0.25 = $12,275
                              (174,400-83,600)*0.28 = $25,454
                              (174,500-174,400)*0.33 = $33

                              Total tax 'burden' = 23.84%
                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 6:24 pm ET)
                                  6
                                i thought you said 70%? what happened to that?
                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by danielsangeo (December 21, 2011 6:28 pm ET)
                                  4  
                                  I said that this is the figures for tax year 2011. If the number was 70%, something similar would happen. Only a small portion of your income would be taxed at that 70% rate...anything over a certain amount.

                                  Earning $100 more would net you 30 extra dollars in your pocket.
                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 6:35 pm ET)
                                      7
                                    all i know is what you said above
                                    You know, I wish I could make so much money that I would "lose 70 cents on every dollar I make above a certain level"....

                                    At $1,000,000,000, that would mean that I would STILL get over $300M. I'm not going to cry over that.

                                    if you want to load it up with all sorts of disclaimers and qualifiers and back away from something so radical now, i understand. i would too. we will just forget you said it.
                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by danielsangeo (December 21, 2011 6:36 pm ET)
                                      3  
                                      I have not changed my stance at all. Nor am I advocating a 70% top marginal tax rate.
                                      Report Abuse
                                      • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 6:41 pm ET)
                                          7
                                        i said, we will just forget you said it. not to worry.
                                        Report Abuse
                                        • Author by danielsangeo (December 21, 2011 6:42 pm ET)
                                          4  
                                          Sorry, I'm confused. I'm not backing away from anything.

                                          I expect an apology for your fib...but I doubt I'll get one.
                                          Report Abuse
                                • Author by Deluded (December 21, 2011 7:05 pm ET)
                                  5  
                                  James, the point daniel is getting at is VERY clear.

                                  Even if you ARE being taxed at 70% (and no one is saying that that is the case or SHOULD be the case, it's not the issue of focus here). The motivation for not only being in a high income bracket and making MORE money STILL holds because....well you will be KEEPING more money by making more money!

                                  Let's put this into perspective: Let's say you are in an income bracket with 70% tax on income. You earn $100 so your taxes will be $70, which leaves you with $30 for (presumably) savings.

                                  Now you work a little harder and increase income by another $100. That means that now your taxes will be $140 (double that of last time). Your savings however will also double, from $30 to $60.

                                  The increment in the money not taxed is the motivation behind people wanting to earn more despite being taxed more, since they get to save more by earning more.

                                  Daniel put it forward very clearly, if you didn't get what he meant you either have problems with comprehension or deliberately chose to ignore the point.
                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by notsure5 (December 23, 2011 5:23 pm ET)
                                       
                                    Except for one thing - almost no one in the in the top marginal bracket makes more money by "working harder". Simply "working harder" doesn't yield more return in those high paying jobs. In fact, most of them don't "work hard" at all. The "hard work" jobs rarely make over 100k a year.
                                    Report Abuse
                                • Author by kabniel (December 21, 2011 9:55 pm ET)
                                  1 1
                                  james

                                  i thought you said 70%? what happened to that?


                                  Once again you do the asking an inane and stupid question that proves only that you are too stupid to understand the concept. Why do you think that is clever? We already know you are stupid
                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by jonimacaroni1 (December 22, 2011 2:01 am ET)
                                    3 1
                                    Well, you know and I know that his questions are dishonest, his ideas ridiculous, and his honesty nonexistent. Too bad too many others, too often, give his posts way more attention than they deserve. They're troll posts, and they don't deserve respect or interaction as though he's a person interested in an honest debate.
                                    Report Abuse
                          • Author by chuckie (December 22, 2011 8:34 am ET)
                            2  
                            Sorry for jumping in the middle of this discussion, but this takes us to an important point. What happens is that when you have enough money money to live, then the incentives change. You start investing in your company and trying to build your market share. This, in fact, often creates many jobs.

                            If you are happy to let your employees do all of the work and you just skim the cream off of the top, why do you deserve the furits of someone else's labor? If you just want to take advantage of the lower labor rates in India, what have you contributed and why do you deserve any break for being a "job creater"?

                            What we have done is create incentives for manipulating the 'system'. Hard work, innovation, or other benefits to society are not factors.
                            Report Abuse
                  • Author by David2012 (December 21, 2011 5:56 pm ET)
                       
                    40% isn't 70%.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 5:59 pm ET)
                        7
                      keep up. 300k is 30% of 1 million
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by David2012 (December 21, 2011 6:13 pm ET)
                        1  
                        You make me smile. 70% is what is know in the trade as a red herring. Nobody is seriously suggesting a 70% marginal tax rate.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 6:14 pm ET)
                            5
                          You know, I wish I could make so much money that I would "lose 70 cents on every dollar I make above a certain level"....

                          At $1,000,000,000, that would mean that I would STILL get over $300M. I'm not going to cry over that.

                          so he was only joking?
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by David2012 (December 21, 2011 6:17 pm ET)
                            2  
                            I was unaware that he was sultan.
                            Report Abuse
                          • Author by danielsangeo (December 21, 2011 6:31 pm ET)
                            1  
                            No, I was making a hypothetical.
                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 6:36 pm ET)
                                6
                              oh, so you it was a hypothetical? were the tears you wouldn't shed over losing 70% also just a hypothetical, or were they real?
                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by danielsangeo (December 21, 2011 6:37 pm ET)
                                2  
                                In the hypothetical world where the top marginal rate was 70%, I would not shed tears over it. Yes, this is all hypothetical.
                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 6:42 pm ET)
                                    6
                                  ok, i mean, you said you wouldn't advocate it. you just wouldn't cry over it either.
                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by danielsangeo (December 21, 2011 6:47 pm ET)
                                    3  
                                    If it happened, I'd know that I'd still be making truckloads of money, and I wouldn't cry about the pittance I had to spend in comparison to make even more money.
                                    Report Abuse
                        • Author by notsure5 (December 23, 2011 5:26 pm ET)
                             
                          Nobody is seriously suggesting a 70% marginal tax rate.

                          I would. At the appropriate amount, where's the harm? Let's incentivize people to either keep their money in their business to create jobs, or they can take it out and the government can take its share to create jobs.
                          Report Abuse
                • Author by bilbo_dies (December 21, 2011 6:21 pm ET)
                  3  
                  james belongs to that fanatical group who believes that they would rather starve than give up any money to support the government that allows them opportunity to make the money in the first place.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by jamesB (December 21, 2011 6:23 pm ET)
                      7
                    yes, i want taxes at 0%. you caught me.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by David2012 (December 21, 2011 6:47 pm ET)
                      3  
                      And what do you think your income would be in an anarchy, jamesB?
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by danielsangeo (December 21, 2011 6:56 pm ET)
                        2  
                        I think jimmy cut and ran early again today.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by highlyunlikely (December 21, 2011 7:00 pm ET)
                          4  
                          he always leaves early - anywhere from 5 to 10 minutes before the 7p. E. quitting time at his actual job. Seems jim isn't content to steal from the place by commenting on company time, he has to deprive it of real time as well. OR, it might take him that long to straighten his desk.
                          Report Abuse
                    • Author by bilbo_dies (December 21, 2011 7:43 pm ET)
                      2  
                      What do you mean "caught you". Up thread you stated:

                      i mean if the govt takes 70% of it, why bother earning that much?
                      Report Abuse
    • Author by politeradical (December 21, 2011 4:53 pm ET)
      4  
      How can anyone take Varney seriously?

      I'm immediately suspicious of someone who spends so much time in the company of the Hamster and these junior varsity idiots.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by angels4light (December 21, 2011 7:35 pm ET)
      3  
      These people have convinced themselves that 'job creators' GIVE people jobs, not because of demand, but because they 'can afford to'.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by little poncho (December 21, 2011 9:46 pm ET)
      1 2
      varney, the fixed & friends morning shew kids' want a present from santa varney.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by Unreality (December 21, 2011 11:24 pm ET)
      4  
      I count 58 entries by JamesB today.

      At no time did he provide any insights or demonstrate learning had taken place. Do people really feel compelled to respond to this troll?
      Report Abuse
      • Author by Unreality (December 21, 2011 11:26 pm ET)
        4  
        I neglected to mention they were ALL off topic which was Varney's opposition to middle class tax cuts and protection of tax cuts for billionaires.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by jonimacaroni1 (December 22, 2011 2:05 am ET)
          2 4
          Of course he was trying to distract from the topic. And when you tell the people who did this that they're erring, they get all defensive and make the strawman argument that they're simply having fun. What the sane people here can see is that those who replied to him here, and who often reply to him were, in actuality, treating his replies as though they were coming from someone who was interested in an honest debate, someone who didn't have the clear intent to derail the topic, etc. They allow themselves to be caught up in his web, and then they can't admit that they did it.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by papajohn (December 22, 2011 10:53 am ET)
            4 1
            In this article MMFA stated:
            In fact, economists agree that an extension of the payroll tax cut would boost employment and help the economy, while the cuts supported by Varney would not have a positive impact on revenues or the economy.


            Meanwhile here is how the Associated Press portrayed that fact:

            http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9RPKO9G0.htm

            Q: What about Democrats?

            A: They say the tax cut and unemployment coverage must be renewed to protect the millions who would be hurt Jan. 1. They also have no desire to surrender leverage by abandoning the two-month deal negotiated by the Senate's Reid and McConnell.

            But they, too, have political motivations.

            Democrats cite economists who say the payroll tax would pump enough money into the economy to help it grow slightly next year. Knowing that the 2012 presidential and congressional races are likely to hinge on the economy's performance, they want to take no chances with anything that might tip the economy in the wrong direction. To them, that means the payroll tax cut and extra jobless coverage must be extended.


            Yes, that's right.

            According to The Associated Press, helping the economy is a "political motivation" on the part of the Democrats. Presumably, that means that they should let it fail to avoid being accused of playing politics.

            John
            Report Abuse
      • Author by n'est-ce pas (December 22, 2011 1:26 pm ET)
        1  
        Awesome, innit?
        Report Abuse
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