On The New Abnormal, Media Matters' Kayla Gogarty explains how some right-leaning online shows are “advertising as one thing, but actually getting into politics and maybe to unwitting audiences”
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On The New Abnormal, Kayla Gogarty explains a new Media Matters study on the online media ecosystem
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From the March 18, 2025, edition of The Daily Beast's The New Abnormal
ANDY LEVY (HOST): The pods have not saved America. An interesting new study from Media Matters says that the world of online streaming and podcast is dominated by the right, and it's not even particularly close. Here to dive into the numbers is Media Matters research director Kayla Gogarty. Kayla, thanks so much for being here.
KAYLA GOGARTY (MEDIA MATTERS RESEARCH DIRECTOR): Thank you so much for having me.
LEVY: So, before we get into those results, tell us what you did here. How was this study conducted? What exactly did you do?
GOGARTY: So, as online shows have become popular and trusted news sources, their role in shaping the public discourse is pretty undeniable. And we know that people have been talking about podcasts, especially after the election, and talking about their role. So we really wanted to show people just how fragmented this landscape is and how much the right is dominating this landscape.
So we gathered a list of popular online shows and whittled it down to shows that are often political and have a clear left-leaning or right-leaning ideological bent. So we then assessed two major aspects. We compared how they self-described. So, did they describe as a comedy podcast or show? Did they describe as an entertainment show? Or is it that they said that they were focused on news and politics?
And we compared that to whether they actually discussed news and politics or not. And then we wanted to assess the audience size to really show the asymmetry in the right and the left landscape. So we gathered public data on the number of followers and subscribers of these shows across a variety of streaming platforms and social media platforms as well, because they often use social media like Facebook and Instagram and TikTok to clip or repost these shows on other platforms and to gain audience there. And then we also assessed YouTube and Rumble channel views as another way to assess audience size.
LEVY: OK, and to be clear, you didn't just look at explicitly political shows like The New Abnormal or Pod Save America. You looked at, for example, popular comedy podcasts that might have an ideological bent, sports streamers, video game streamers, etc. So things all across podcasts, YouTube, Twitch, etc.
GOGARTY: Yes, exactly. We wanted to see just how much shows are advertising as one thing, but actually getting into politics and maybe to unwitting audiences.
LEVY: OK, so let's dig into what you found, because you describe it as substantial asymmetry. So explain what that means.
GOGARTY: Yeah, so I'd say we have two major findings in this study. First is that asymmetry that you just mentioned. So we found that right-leaning online shows had nearly 5 times the total following on a variety of platforms compared to left-leaning online shows.
And then secondary, we found that shows self-categorize as comedy, entertainment, sports, and other supposedly nonpolitical categories, while actually discussing news and politics. And of that subset, nearly three-quarters are right-leaning.
LEVY: So there was a stat that was just astounding in the study. And you said that across streaming platforms, left-leaning online shows had roughly 60 million total followers and subscribers, and the right-leaning shows had around 255 million?
GOGARTY: Yeah. The number is pretty staggering.
I think part of that is really YouTube. One of the things that we found is that YouTube has a large number of followers for these shows, and that asymmetry was especially prominent for that platform.
...
LEVY: So, I'm looking at these and Joe Rogan, as you say, sort of self-identifies as a comedy podcast. Russell Brand, I don't know if he considers himself a comedy podcast, but he was at one point a comedian. Theo Von is a comedian. The Nelk Boys' Full Send Podcast is comedy. How much of this asymmetry that we're seeing is driven by comedy or by things that are sort of self-labeled as comedy?
GOGARTY: So, comedy specifically, we found about 15 right-leaning shows that self-described as comedy. And just that subset had over 115 million followers and subscribers, which is actually 20% of the total following of all the shows that we assessed. So that category includes, like you said, a Joe Rogan, a Theo Von, a Full Send Podcast. So that subset is taking up a decent amount of the audience.
LEVY: Wow. That's unbelievable. And there was another interesting stat that you put in the piece about this, noting that Trump and Vance appeared on 6 of these right-leaning comedy shows, a total of 9 times, and that those appearances have a ton of views on YouTube.
GOGARTY: Yeah, they had at least 120 million views. So just those 6 right-leaning shows, a total of 9 times. One of the things that we've heard after the election is just how much Trump used these podcasts to appeal to other audiences besides his usual audience.
LEVY: Well, and that seems to be the key here is that, or at least one of the keys, is that a lot of these podcasts are not explicitly politics podcasts. The Ben Shapiros and Charlie Kirks and Candace Owens, yes, they are. But a lot of these podcasts and streaming sites are, as you point out, they're not mainly politics. They don't get into the weeds about politics. So when politicians go on them, they reach a different audience, right?
GOGARTY: Yes. So, it's interesting because you'll see -- they have celebrities, they have other comedians on the podcast, and they're just like hanging out and talking. But then they'll have this comment about politics or news.
One of the things that I have seen is during Trump's presidency, we have seen some of these hosts praising and defending the administration and their actions. We've seen Rogan justifying the gutting of USAID, for instance. Though he said that he thinks some programs should be picked up again, he's repeatedly pushed claims about widespread fraud and corruption at USAID and saying that the administration is uncovering all of this corruption.
And on another show, for instance, Flagrant, which was within some of the top shows that we found, we had a host say, “Make your money in the next four years. Once Democrats are back, they're going to reinstate regulations.” So really kind of like throwing in a Trump praise here, a Trump praise there, or having some right-wing guests on. That's another way that the right-wing narrative is getting into these spaces. They'll have these right-wing guests on.
LEVY: And they don't push back at them. It's not like you could say, well, they had them on to debate them. They don't.
GOGARTY: Yeah, exactly.
LEVY: How many of these shows that you found actually do have a political bent describe themselves in terms other than political, whether it's sports or comedy or entertainment, like you said — is it a large group?
GOGARTY: We found about 111 out of our 320 describe themselves as comedy or entertainment, education. But among that, about three-quarters was right-leaning. So we're really seeing the right-leaning narratives and guests really seeping into these other spaces and expanding their audiences.