On MSNBC’s Deadline: White House, Angelo Carusone explains how Project 2025 will remake the Department of Justice in Trump's image
Published
Citation From the September 23, 2024, edition of MSNBC's Deadline: White House
NICOLLE WALLACE (HOST): Angelo, I thought of you when I saw this reporting because I feel like you can plug it into everything you understand about Project 2025 and Trump's very specific plans in this area if he wins again.
ANGELO CARUSONE (MEDIA MATTERS PRESIDENT): Yeah. I mean, I'll start with his announcement for re-election, right? Where he did it in Waco, Texas. And it's not just connected to Project 2025, because he chose that because of Steve Bannon, who picked that as a symbol of retribution and anti-government and in particular anti-deep state revenge. That's why they chose that location. And this larger effort here ties in exactly with Project 2025. Michael was kind of alluding to this a little bit in the back of the last discussion where he noted that as they were going through this reporting, they noticed that Trump got better and better and more effective at using the tools and levers of government as instruments of revenge and retribution to go after his opponents, that by 2018 he was even better than when he first got in office. And what Project 2025 is is an actual optimized effort to do that.
So, one, it builds off of this idea that there’s too much friction in the system, that there are these deep state efforts, or in particular post-Watergate norms, that all have to be eliminated. That is a big hallmark of some of the legal theory behind Project 2025, is that that shouldn't exist anymore, we should get rid of it. And Michael even talked about that -- that is one of the very things that slowed it down, that and some of the potential risk for liability. So, basically, what Project 2025 is is an actualization of the promise that Trump made at his re-election announcement, where he talked about retribution and revenge. And what it does is it weaponizes the DOJ by first identifying any of these potential pressure points or impediments or speed bumps, to using the DOJ as an instrument for retribution and getting rid of them -- either by eliminating them, firing them. And second, it turns it into not just a pinpoint response but a big sort of shock and awe. Go after as many people, as many opponents as quickly as possible.
And the last part, which hasn't been discussed and where I'll wrap, is that it’s where the targets are coming from. Because they're not all coming from Trump's head. They're also coming from the right-wing media that he consumes. There's a feedback loop there that -- where he gets this from is he's pulling it back from the fever swamps and the media entities in a way that's sort of servicing back to the very audience that is helping propel him into power. And that's what we're really talking about here, the optimization and the actualization of what was the haphazard effort of revenge back in his first term.
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WALLACE: I mean, Angelo, this is where all the enablers that you've focused on and talked about, the people that populate his campaign and his Project 2025 apparatus. Because to try to charge Andy McCabe, it wasn't just Trump accusing him of treason at an event in the East Room. It was the entire leadership at DOJ had to assign staff -- paid for by the U.S. taxpayer -- to take this crap case where they couldn't get an indictment. I mean, how do you guard against what would be much more pliable actors in the next Trump presidency?
CARUSONE: I think that's where the election comes in. I mean, ultimately this isn't a situation where mitigation is going to make that much of a difference. There are some existing safeguards like the courts, but they've been eroded as well and the stakes are really high. It is a prevention approach, and that's where this reporting comes in, being able to tell these stories, go back and look at what we know with fresh eyes to potentially assess where we're going to be helps put the stakes into focus. But I think what really scares me is that even when some of these things are not successful -- say, because they got investigated and they were potentially charged or trying to get charged, but the courts threw it out or ruled it out, as you noted in the earlier discussion -- the damage is done. And what it does is it starts to get -- Ruth knows better than me -- but it starts to affect people's behavior.
You know, the reason we have heroes is because what they do is extraordinary. Most people go along to get along. And you only have to bang and slam. And that's what's different about Project 2025 and these individuals compared to the last time, is that last time they were working with a small cadre of individuals they put into power, whereas now they plan on erasing a very significant portion of the department and already bringing in pre-vetted and predetermined individuals at scale who know exactly what the assignment is, so that they can do as much of this early on. And even if most of them fail, it wouldn't matter because the effect on individuals' behaviors beyond that would not just be chilling, they’ll -- most of them will go along to get along. And, so, I think ultimately that's what's scary about these moments, is that sometimes, you know, there's not always infinite exit ramps. And there’s -- instead of thinking about what we should do beyond, after the election, we have to really think about the real lever of power and decision now. This is the inflection point, not in three months from now unfortunately, and scarily.