JOHN BERMAN (CO-HOST): You say you are 100 percent sure that Judge Kavanaugh lied under oath to the U.S. Senate in two separate areas. I want to go after them one at a time, if I can. You say you are 100 percent sure that he lied under oath about not blacking out after drinking. Explain. 

JAMIE ROCHE (BRETT KAVANAUGH'S COLLEGE ROOMMATE): I was Brett's college roommate. We shared a room. We had beds 12 feet apart. And I would see him leaving to go to parties, having had beers in our suite. I saw him coming home from parties, unable to speak coherently. I saw him when he was vomiting in the bedroom and in the bathroom in the suite, and I saw him the next morning when he couldn't get himself out of bed. I am not a doctor. I don't know how you define “blacking out.” But, like a lot of people, I had some beer in college as well. And I would say that those things are consistent with blacking out. 

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BERMAN: The second area is the terms that were brought up. And I'm not going to sugarcoat this, he was talking about “devil's triangle” and the word “boofing.” He said that they weren't sexual in reference. What‘s your memory? 

ROCHE: Yeah. That was very surprising. I think I, like a lot of people, chuckled when he said that. It's just unbelievable. If you were in college at that time, those words were not uncommon. They're impolite and they're rude, but they were used and they were used in a context that was not consistent with what Brett said under oath, and a lot of us knew it. 

BERMAN: Do you have specific memories of Brett Kavanaugh using the word, either “boof” or the phrase, “devil's triangle,” and having it not relate to a drinking game, for instance? 

ROCHE: Yes, I do. 

BERMAN: So -- and he says that just wasn't the case. He says “devil's triangle” was a drinking game, he says “boofing” was flatulence. That is what he testified to under oath to the U.S. Senate. You say he was lying.

ROCHE: Yeah. I think it's absolutely stunning. You know, the thing that bothered me about it, obviously it's not that he was drinking, it's not that he was talking impolitely about women. I think those things are rude, but I don't think they were uncommon and I don't think they disqualify you. I think what was shocking to me was getting up under oath and with a straight face saying that these things were true when he knew, and when a lot of people knew, that that was not the case. And it was a suggestion that if I just say this, nobody will challenge me, that nobody will stand up and take the risk of saying what we all knew to be true. And I think what really got under my skin with this was that, really, we weren't talking about Brett's drinking, and we weren't talking about his saying bad things about women. We were talking about what I believed to be the credible claims of women who had gone through a lot of pain. And by getting up there and saying these and other things, what he was saying is, these women's pain doesn't matter. That either they're lying, or they're crazy, or they're just going after me. And I don't think that's OK.

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ROCHE: He wasn’t being quizzed on drinking. I don’t know very many people who didn’t drink in college, and I know a lot of people who drank in college to the point of blacking out or throwing up. It’s not a proud thing, but it’s very common. It particularly was common then. That wasn’t the problem. The problem is, does he tell the truth? And does he tell the truth when it matters, and does he tell the truth about little things, and does he lie easily, and does he lie for good reasons, or does he lie just to protect embarrassment? And it’s in the context of the claims of Debbie [Ramirez] who, I’ve got to tell you, I knew Debbie at that time very, very well. I spent lots of time with her, and she was a notably honest person. And so, we’re being asked to believe the story of a person who I, not uniquely, but specifically knew to be very honest, versus a person who is standing up in front of us saying things that we all know not to be true.

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BERMAN: Has the FBI contacted you and asked anything about this? 



ROCHE: No. No, the FBI didn't contact me in their earlier background checks and the FBI has not contacted me regarding this. 

Previously: 

Brett Kavanaugh lied repeatedly. News reports and personal accounts prove it.

CNN analyst dismisses Kavanaugh's apparent perjury as “ancient history”

Conservative media rally around Kavanaugh amid second allegation of sexual misconduct