On the October 15 edition of MSNBC's Hardball, during a discussion of Don Imus' reported debut on New York radio station WABC in December, MSNBC political analyst Pat Buchanan told host Chris Matthews, “Chris, in my judgment, the guy is more a victim of hatred than a perpetrator of hatred,” later adding, "[I]f Don Imus had been black, nothing would have been done to him." As Media Matters for America documented, on the April 4 edition of MSNBC's Imus in the Morning, Imus referred to the Rutgers University women's basketball team, which, during the 2006-07 season, was composed of eight African-American and two white players, as “nappy-headed hos.” Imus was subsequently fired from CBS Radio and MSNBC.

Later on Hardball, Matthews stated that Rev. Al Sharpton “has said that before Don Imus can come back on the air, he has to pay some sort of restitution to these women” on the Rutgers basketball team. Buchanan replied, “The worst, worst price the gals and the team paid was to have to fly out and be on Oprah. They're the most famous women in America. Everybody praised them and fawned all over them.” When author and Georgetown University professor Michael Eric Dyson stated, “Since he's going to come back -- this is what I'm interested in. Will he, when he comes back, make restitution -- not in terms of money ... by saying, 'Look, my show's going to be different. Not that I can't be irreverent and politically incorrect. I love irreverence and political incorrectness. But I'm going to have a black person on to give it to me just as well as I give it. I'm going to have a broader consciousness of what's going on,' ” Buchanan responded, “That sounds like a shakedown to me.”

Additionally, Matthews asked Buchanan: "[Y]ou agree it's wrong to have [former presidential adviser] Vernon Jordan portrayed as Calhoun from Amos 'n' Andy? The old accents from that radio show? Is it OK to say this is Vernon Jordan talking? Isn't that racist?" Buchanan replied: “But it's a put-on. ... [O]bviously, they exaggerate [News Orleans Mayor Ray] Nagin. Look at what they do with the cardinal.” Buchanan was apparently referring to former Imus in the Morning executive producer Bernard McGuirk who, as Media Matters has noted, performed the character “Cardinal Egan” on the show. When Matthews pressed, asking: “No, not exaggerating. ... Where they simply portray a black guy as some character, some cartoon character out of Amos 'n' Andy. You don't have a problem with that?” Buchanan responded: “I thought Amos 'n' Andy was a great show, didn't you?”

In a later segment, Matthews said: “By the way, wish them well, the women. We can't talk more about this tonight, but I think our debate tonight between Pat and Michael -- and as [actor] Leslie Nielsen said in his wonderful movie Naked Gun 2 1/2, 'When it comes to boxing, never bet on the white guy.' "

During the April 4 edition of Imus in the Morning, Imus referred to the Rutgers University women's basketball team as “nappy-headed hos,” immediately after McGuirk called the team “hard-core hos.” Two days later, Imus apologized on air, calling his comments “insensitive and ill-conceived,” adding that "[i]t was completely inappropriate, and we can understand why people were offended." He further called the comments “thoughtless and stupid.” However, while acknowledging that it was not “OK” for him to call members of the Rutgers team “nappy-headed hos,” Imus asserted on the April 10 edition of his show, and on NBC's Today that the phrase “originated in the black community.” Specifically, he stated: “I may be a white man, but I know that ... young black women all through that society are demeaned and disparaged and disrespected ... by their own black men and that they are called that name.” Echoing Imus, Buchanan asked Dyson on Hardball, “Where do you think he got the phrase, 'nappy-headed hos?' ” then answered his own question: “That's out of rap music!”

From the October 15 edition of MSNBC's Hardball with Chris Matthews:

MATTHEWS: Welcome back to Hardball. It was back in April that both CBS and MSNBC fired TV and radio host Don Imus, following Imus' derogatory comments about the Rutgers women's basketball team. Now, according to the New York Daily News today, Don Imus is expected to return to radio this December, just a couple of months from now, on WABC in New York -- that's a big radio station up in New York -- in a deal that will most likely include syndication all across the country.

By the way, we called WABC and got no comment, other than, “No official statement has been made about Don Imus.” I love the way people talk. Machines talk like that. Anyway, should Imus return to work? Has he suffered enough?

That's our Hardball debate tonight. And I put the question to Pat Buchanan and then I will put it to Professor Michael Eric Dyson of Georgetown, author of Know What I Mean? Pat, has he suffered enough?

BUCHANAN: Oh, sure. I mean, good heavens, I think he made a foolish, insulting comment at 6:15 in the morning -- a throwaway line about “nappy-headed hos” -- and then to be basically hammered, and for 10 days, and abused and lose his job and have -- and be treated as though he's one of the great evil men of Western Civilization I thought was appalling. The man is a friend of mine, and I think a real spirit of censorship was involved in here. And frankly, I think --

MATTHEWS: Do you think he should have not been fired?

BUCHANAN: Well, there's nothing MS -- we could have done once the advertisers had pulled out.

MATTHEWS: No, but do you think he should have stayed on the air?

BUCHANAN: Well, of course not. I think he should have gone out for a week or two-week suspension, and come back and been on the air. His viewers have been deprived of the guy. Chris, in my judgment, the guy is more a victim of hatred than a perpetrator of hatred. What he said that morning was stupid and foolish, but it was a throwaway remark.

MATTHEWS: Who are the haters?

BUCHANAN: The haters are the people who went after him with 10 days of premeditated assault, trying to drive him off the air; self-professed Christians who are beating a man to death, who has apologized again, and again, and again. It was a disgusting example in my judgment of piling on. It was the American establishment at its worst.

DYSON: Yeah, well --

MATTHEWS: Professor Dyson, respond to that.

DYSON: Yeah, well, Michael Vick probably feels the same way that you're describing that my brother felt. Yeah, I think, look, it was not only ridiculous and silly and stupid, it was also racist. That's a word that Mr. Buchanan failed to mention. It's not simply about personal bigotry, it's about the fact that “nappy-headed ho” signified a hierarchy of beauty with white and black women. Very few of the women had, by the way, had nappy hair. Nappy is contour duplicated, anthropologically, or just in the common vernacular: kinky --

MATTHEWS: Right.

DYSON: -- black hair. So, first of all, is his optic nerves being distorted by his bigotry, because most of those women had straightened hair?

Number 2, how did he know they were hos? I'm saying the point is that Mr. Imus' comments dredged up some of the worst feelings about black women in this country that, by the way, predate by far Mr. Imus. Those are unconsciously driven into the fabric of American society that demonize black women. I think that -- look, this is one of the few times that insulting a black woman made you pay a penalty, one of the few times when a black person got insulted and was vulnerable by a white male figure in American society and actually paid add penalty for it.

Now, what penalty did he pay? He's back on the radio in December? I'm not mad at Mr. Imus for getting another shot at the job, but let's see if he'll be as deferential as he said he would be. Let's see if he will be as apologetic, and why would women say --

MATTHEWS: What would you like -- well, the debate here, Michael, is whether he suffered enough. Do you want him off the air another two years, or what?

DYSON: No, it's not --

MATTHEWS: What's your penalty?

DYSON: You know what? If he comes back, that's fine.

MATTHEWS: No, what's your penalty box?

DYSON: My -- well, he got fired. That was a great -- that was the penalty he should have paid.

MATTHEWS: No, do you want him to stay off the air longer?

DYSON: No, I think he should come back on and do everything he said was going to do should he have been given a second chance, which is, be racially conscious, be understanding of the fact that he was complicit in some negative viewpoints. And, Mr. Buchanan, whoever appeared on his show and frolicked with the good old white boys club there, is part and parcel of the same fabric -- to mix metaphors -- of the very problem we're talking about here.

MATTHEWS: Well, you got me there --

DYSON: And I'm saying --

MATTHEWS: -- because I used to do his show a lot.

BUCHANAN: If Don Imus was black --

MATTHEWS: Go ahead.

DYSON: I'm saying --

MATTHEWS: Let me tell you --

DYSON: -- and everybody [inaudible] was on there was complicit.

MATTHEWS: And let me tell you my views about -- go ahead, Pat. You're marking it. Your argument is?

BUCHANAN: Sure, with due respect -- look, if Don Imus had been black, nothing would have been done to him. As we're hearing right here, it's the very fact he was white and his insulting comment was made about black women. And it's an unpardonable comment that he made and should apologize for. But to hear him compared to Michael Vick, who viciously --

DYSON: I didn't compare them. I think I would have --

BUCHANAN: -- tortured dogs and lynched dogs --

DYSON: I didn't compare them.

BUCHANAN: -- and put gods in fights. Well, you just threw out Michael Vick's name.

DYSON: No, no, I said Michael Vick felt the way you said that Mr. Imus felt.

BUCHANAN: Well, for --

DYSON: But here's my point. Here's my point.

BUCHANAN: You compared -- what did you bring him up for?

DYSON: But this is the typical reaction of a white patriarchal system that says, “If he had been black.” Let me say, if he had been black and said “silky-headed hos” talking about white women, I think there would have been an uproar. But the history of race in this country suggests that the demonization of black women is something for which white men have not paid sufficient penalty.

BUCHANAN: You know, Professor --

DYSON: I think him getting fired was a beautiful thing.

BUCHANAN: Professor, cut it out.

DYSON: Cut what out, sir?

BUCHANAN: Where do you think he got the phrase “nappy-headed hos”?

DYSON: It didn't come from black --

BUCHANAN: That's out of rap music!

DYSON: No, no, no. Rap is a condens- --

BUCHANAN: You never heard it in rap music?

DYSON: Let me finish. I'm an expert on rap.

BUCHANAN: Uh-huh.

DYSON: Rap has [unintelligible] condensed “whore” to “ho.” That is true in the vernacular.

BUCHANAN: Uh-huh.

DYSON: “Whore” is a word that predates rap music. Look for Benjamin Franklin and others of that ilk to talk about that. My point is simply this.

BUCHANAN: “Ho” is not in rap music?

DYSON: Hold on. No, no, no. I'm saying to you that “whore” is a notion that is predating rap music. “Ho” is a term that has been used in rap music. It didn't start with rap music. So, all I'm saying to you, I'm not denying that rap music has been vitriolic in its perpetuation of a negative legacy toward black women.

But for you to sit up here, Mr. Buchanan, and act like “ho” was invented by black people, when black women were treated like hos when they came here in 1619 --

BUCHANAN: The word “ho” --

DYSON: -- you're missing a sense of history, sir.

BUCHANAN: I know what whore is. I've read Shakespeare. I know what that is. That was all white. “Ho” is a black --

DYSON: It's not simply reading material what “whore” is.

BUCHANAN: “Ho” is a black terminology.

DYSON: “Ho” is a -- I didn't say that, you said rap music. You said --

MATTHEWS: OK, let me -- let me invoke --

DYSON: You said hip-hop.

MATTHEWS: Let me invoke --

DYSON: I said it's a condensation of a term.

MATTHEWS: Let me invoke -- let me invoke the first estate here: Al Sharpton.

DYSON: Right.

MATTHEWS: No, no --

BUCHANAN: The [inaudible] arbiter our time.

MATTHEWS: He says -- I asked him about this a while ago -- think what you will of him as a human being or as a person, Pat -- he has said that before Don Imus can come back on the air, he has to pay some sort of restitution to these women.

BUCHANAN: Tell him to stuff it! Excuse me.

DYSON: That's why -- because the consequence for dissing black women --

BUCHANAN: I mean, who the hell is Al Sharpton --

DYSON: The consequence of dissing black women is low. Mr. Buchanan doesn't want that restitution to be paid because we shouldn't be at penalty for dissing black women.

BUCHANAN: Restitution --

DYSON: I think he's paid his price.

MATTHEWS: One at a time.

DYSON: Come back on the air and do the right thing.

BUCHANAN: Let me -- restitution --

MATTHEWS: Go ahead.

BUCHANAN: The worst, worst price the gals and the team paid was to have to fly out and be on Oprah. They're the most famous women in America. Everybody praised them and fawned all over them. Chris, and the idea --

MATTHEWS: Wait, you're incredibly --

BUCHANAN: -- and the idea that this country -- the idea that this country has reached the point where Al Sharpton is the guy handing down moral judgments --

DYSON: He's a --

BUCHANAN: -- tells you you are really in the tank.

DYSON: That's not what he's -- this is what he's saying. Simply this: The fact is, they went on Oprah why? Because finally a brilliant, globally successful black woman was able to reach out and help. We couldn't have done that 20, 30 years ago.

BUCHANAN: How --

DYSON: Hold -- let me finish. The white media itself is congratulating itself for its own liberal consciousness when the white supremacist --

MATTHEWS: Wait, wait. Slow down here.

DYSON: -- ideas are being perpetuated.

MATTHEWS: Let me tell you. I happen to know that --

DYSON: That's all I'm saying to you, brother.

MATTHEWS: I want to ask you -- first of all. I think I want to add something to this. First of all, one of the reasons -- I'm not sure all the reasons -- that NBC decided to get rid of him on this show was not just advertising pressure, I'm assuming that.

DYSON: Right.

MATTHEWS: But our colleagues, Pat, in the business of NBC News believe -- and I think they've had a good case -- that they're held to standards. People like -- people in our business. I'm not going to name names --

BUCHANAN: I know you won't.

MATTHEWS: -- in our business are held to certain standards about what they can say about people. They say, “Well, how come this guy, Don Imus, doesn't have to be held to those standards?” He's on NBC, on the air --

BUCHANAN: Oh, but look, Chris --

MATTHEWS: -- and so, their statement was: “You've got to discipline this guy for what we would be disciplined for.” That was their argument.

BUCHANAN: I agree.

MATTHEWS: These are not a bunch of people crazy. These are our colleagues.

BUCHANAN: I agree. I agree. Our colleagues, when -- mainly a lot of African-Americans folks -- look --

MATTHEWS: You said a lot of people were haters, that he's a victim of hate.

BUCHANAN: That's what I call a victim of hate, Chris, is this. The guy made a mistake. He apologized again and again --

DYSON: Was it a racist mistake?

BUCHANAN: When you got a guy down and you're kicking him and kicking him --

DYSON: I agree with you, Pat.

BUCHANAN: -- and kicking him for 10 days, that's hatred.

DYSON: Was it a racist comment?

BUCHANAN: Of course it was a silly, racist comment, and he should apologize for it.

DYSON: All right.

BUCHANAN: If he didn't do anything wrong, he shouldn't have been punished in any way.

DYSON: When he comes back -- here's the moment I'm interested in. Since he's going to come back -- this is what I'm interested in. Will he, when he comes back, make restitution -- not in terms of money -- let me finish -- by saying, “Look, my show's going to be different. Not that I can't be irreverent and politically incorrect. I love irreverence and political incorrectness. But I'm going to have a black person on to give it to me just as well as I give it. I'm going to have a broader consciousness of what's going on.” I'm just asking you --

BUCHANAN: That sounds like a shakedown to me.

DYSON: No, it's not a shakedown. You know why?

BUCHANAN: Sure it is.

DYSON: Because white guy's not interested in being held accountable, bro.

BUCHANAN: Well, you know what it looks like? “Look, he made a mistake, let's hit him up and make sure we get one of our fellows on there.”

MATTHEWS: Can we draw some distinctions here? Let me see how tough you are.

BUCHANAN: This is ridiculous.

MATTHEWS: Is there anything wrong with Bernie McGuirk doing a really good imitation of Ray Nagin on the air?

DYSON: No, but you see --

MATTHEWS: OK, you say, “No, but.” OK.

DYSON: I say, “No, but.” All I'm saying to you --

BUCHANAN: It is funny and it is outrageous.

DYSON: No.

BUCHANAN: It is both. You know it is.

DYSON: Bernie McGuirk's racial consciousness depends upon --

MATTHEWS: I don't think that there's any problem with it at all.

DYSON: I'm saying -- no, no.

MATTHEWS: But I knew there was something wrong --

DYSON: Let me answer the question. I'm saying that black people and women and other minorities have been the victims so much of white male consciousness in terms of jokes that when you flip the script, we don't even --

MATTHEWS: OK. You're missing it.

DYSON: -- we hardly see that.

MATTHEWS: You're missing it. Michael, give me a break. Because I think there's nothing wrong with that if it's a really good imitation. It's what Saturday Night Live does every week. I mean, Darrell Hammond does Jesse better than anybody.

DYSON: But since we know what Bernie --

MATTHEWS: OK --

DYSON: But since we know what Bernie --

[crosstalk]

MATTHEWS: -- you agree it's wrong to have Vernon Jordan portrayed as Calhoun from Amos 'n' Andy? The old accents from that radio show? Is it OK to say this is Vernon Jordan talking? Isn't that racist?

BUCHANAN: But it's a put-on. If it's -- obviously, they exaggerate Nagin. Look what they do with the cardinal.

MATTHEWS: No, not exaggerating. Where they simply replay --

BUCHANAN: Look what they do with the cardinal.

MATTHEWS: Where they simply portray a black guy as some character, some cartoon character out of Amos 'n' Andy. You don't have a problem with that?

DYSON: Absolutely --

BUCHANAN: I mean, I thought Amos 'n' Andy was a great show, didn't you?

DYSON: It's problematic --

BUCHANAN: It was a great American show.

DYSON: -- fundamentally. And the reason it's problematic is that because -- what I'm saying --

MATTHEWS: I think doing Ray Nagin well is different than someone --

BUCHANAN: But what about the cardinal?

DYSON: But this is what you're missing. Who's the victim of these jokes? And it's always a bunch of -- let me finish. It's a bunch of -- if we saw Sunday morning television with a bunch of black people making fun of white people, I'm telling you, the heat would be raised and the index of discomfort would be brought up. But we ain't going to see that. We don't see that.

MATTHEWS: Nobody does white guys better than Chris Rock.

DYSON: Let me tell you one thing, it's really ridiculous that, in America, we still have to deal with this, and it's --

BUCHANAN: How can they --

MATTHEWS: Has he suffered enough?

DYSON: No.

MATTHEWS: Has he suffered enough?

BUCHANAN: How can they be victims when they're the most famous basketball team in history? For heaven's sakes!

DYSON: 'Cause you could be famous as a person who's black. Come on, bro!

BUCHANAN: They got a nasty little slur they never even heard, and they're on Oprah.

DYSON: Oh my God! Because they were offensively treated and they were disrespected, and all black women were.

BUCHANAN: Call me a name and then get me on Oprah for my next book.

MATTHEWS: OK, well --

DYSON: Right.

MATTHEWS: I don't think this'll do it, Pat.

DYSON: Yeah, this sure ain't going to happen, brother.

BUCHANAN: Not this one.

MATTHEWS: Anyway, thank you, Pat Buchanan. Thank you to Professor Michael Eric Dyson. Up next, the Hardball roundtable.

[...]

MATTHEWS: By the way, wish them well, the women. We can't talk more about this tonight, but I think our debate tonight between Pat and Michael -- and as Leslie Nielsen said in his wonderful movie, Naked Gun 2½, “When it comes to boxing, never bet on the white guy.” We'll be right back with the roundtable. You're watching Hardball, only on MSNBC.