CHUCK TODD (HOST): I want to bring in Travis Weber, director for the Center for Religious Liberty at the Family Research Council, and Eunice Rho, the ACLU's advocacy and policy counsel here with me in New York. Mr. Weber, let me start with you and ask you on what the governor did, do you think that was a -- a helpful executive order that he signed last night? Or do you think he unduly harmed the law? 

TRAVIS WEBER: Well, I do think the order was helpful. You know, the order clarified some things and it actually adds protections for the state government, regarding sexual orientation. The fact that so many on the far left are still unhappy with this, still think it's a problem, shows how out of touch they are with legitimate concerns regarding many parents on the bathroom issue across the state for a number of reasons, and the fact the law is quite reasonable in providing accommodations. So I don't think this is really a problem at all, in its current form. 

TODD: Eunice, same question to you. The executive order, do you feel like it clarified some things in the law that you wanted to see happen? 

EUNICE RHO: You know, the new executive order, unfortunately, is a failure on three different fronts. First is, it does nothing to walk back the harmful discriminatory provisions on transgender people and their ability to use bathrooms, in public facilities across the state, including schools, airports, and other government facilities. Secondly, it does nothing, again, to undo the fact that localities cannot pass protections for their own LGBT citizens, just the way Charlotte did, or, of course, pass other local ordinances that would extend protections beyond what the state would allow. And finally, it also, it also, you know, it says that it extends protections to state employees based on sexual orientation and gender identity, but given that transgender public employees cannot use the bathroom in accordance with their gender identity, you know, we call into question that gender identity protection for state employees. 

 

TODD: Mr. Weber, let me unpack a couple of things here that Miss Rho just said, but first, let me start with this issue of preventing local governments from having their own ordinances. This does seem counter to sort of conservative government philosophy. Which is, smaller, local control. This was the state deciding it didn't like what a locality was doing. 

WEBER: Sure, well, you know, if you look at the Charlotte ordinance, which this addressed, I mean, that ordinance was very, very problematic. Number one, it had no religious liberty protections at all. It allowed for gender expression and gender identity, which will result in a host of confusing problems. While this characterization is apt, you know, that you laid out regarding localities, let me point out, too, that this does not prevent localities from making an accommodation regarding specific situations that arise. All it says is that people should use the bathroom of their biological sex. You know, I really don't think that's too troublesome in light of the many concerns on various sides of this issue, and the problems we've seen when gender-neutral bathrooms have been opened up. 

TODD: But Mr. Weber, I -- the part of this law that I've struggled with is how do you enforce the bathroom law? 

WEBER: Well, you know, I think it's a good question. It's a good question for folks who are pushing these bathroom laws around the country. For a long time, we've been fine with having bathrooms, you know, determined by sex. And we really have not had too many problems. I mean, there's a reason we do this, for many, many reasons. In schools, other facilities, many involving children, locker rooms, and their bathrooms. You know, I think the burden is definitely on people who want to change that scenario, to show why, you know, it should be changed. 

TODD: But you're basically admitting, there's really no way to enforce this law. 

WEBER: Well, I think there's certainly a way to enforce it. I mean, all this is doing, remember, is leaving the status -- putting the status quo into law. It says that, you know, local governments shall have this regime. It doesn't say anything about private companies. They can do whatever they want with regard to the bathrooms. But it provides for an accommodation for specific scenarios as they arise. I mean, this is the way we have had things, this is the way things have been regarding bathrooms for a long time. I mean, we're not, this isn't really changing a lot here. 

 

TODD: Miss Rho, let me go to the question Mr. Weber brought up when he said he thought the Charlotte ordinance did not have any protections for religious liberty, what do you say to that? 

RHO: Well the Charlotte ordinance protected its LGBT citizens from public accommodations, employment, and in housing. You know, we have had a long history in this country of ensuring that all public accommodations are open to people, regardless of who they are, and that they serve everybody equally. So there's no reason to re-visit that issue. And I also want to address Mr. Weber's very misguiding and harmful statements about transgender people. You know, there are hundreds of jurisdictions across the country that have passed public accommodations protections for LGBT people. None of the fearmongering incidents that he is raising have ever happened. And you know, transgender students deserve protections, too. They deserve the freedom to learn and make friends and attend schools, just like any other student. 

TODD: Mr. Weber, let me ask you this, go back, to follow up on Miss Rho's point there. Isn't it more disruptive if you're making somebody who's uncomfortable going into a bathroom of their biological birth, but they identify with the other gender, isn't it -- aren't you, perhaps, creating a situation where it becomes more problematic for that person? 

WEBER: Well, no, I don't think so, at all. I mean, look. This law has an accommodation that can be made. I mean we have to remember the discomfort that girls will have in terms of someone who's a boy coming into their locker room. To her point, to her claim, we've had incidents. We've had incidents around this issue. A number of girls walked out of a high school in the midwest because of discomfort regarding this. The University of Toronto has trans, has gender-neutral bathrooms. They had boys in there filming the girls in the bathroom. I mean, Seattle has taken advantage of that law in that area now. All I'm saying is, these are, there are many complex issues here that have arisen. There are problems, and this shouldn't be rammed through, as if everyone who has legitimate concerns is opposing it for an absolutely irrational reason. 

TODD: Ms Rho, respond to that final point, because there is, what do you do about the folks that essentially just aren’t comfortable with this? 

 

RHO: I want to address, the ramming through really happened - with House Bill 2, which was introduced and passed in less than 24 hours in a special session that cost the state over $40,000. As opposed to the Charlotte ordinance, which was considered over a number of years after considerable debate and public input. And so that is misleading. And you know, there's a lack of familiarity with transgender people that, you know, organizations like the Family Research Council and others are trying to exploit for political and other gain. I want to point out, there was a religious liberty bill that Governor McCrory vetoed last year, that would have allowed government employees to deny marriage licenses for same-sex couples. We see Governor McCrory taking a different political calculus in a year that he's up for re-election. This is nothing but political cynicism, preying on fears about the unfamiliar. 

TODD: I'm going to pause it there. I don't think this debate is going to get sorted out, but you guys have been terrific at representing each side. I appreciate it. Travis Weber, Eunice Rho, thank you for coming on. 

Previously:

Jessica Williams And Transgender Activists Debunk The “Bathroom Predator” Myth On The Daily Show

Watch A Transgender Activist Debunk The “Bathroom Predator” Myth On CNN

Four North Carolina Universities Debunk Anti-LGBT “Bathroom Predator” Myth